Oculus Explains Why They Didn't Launch Touch with the Rift (Even Though They "Could Have")

Dotcommer

Wow. The thought process behind this is so asinine I can’t even…

Meanwhile, valve kicked out everything, and here we are with a ton of engaging room-scale games, and a flourishing developer community exploring new forms of locomotion and interaction. More developers are making games for the Vive because it has all the components needed for room-scale, and the developers can be assured everyone will have the same hardware to play with. Rift devs are building seated/standing experiences and finely tuning them, and then have to somehow turn around implementing the touch controllers into their games. I don’t know how Rift devs can keep making games with all these middle fingers Oculus is giving them….

WormSlayer

Vive games = SteamVR games, which are by default compatible with Rift/Touch.
- DiGiCT Ltd
  
  Correct, we use Steam VR and also will deploy on STeam as valve can have our 30%, there is no reason for us to give Oculus our 30% share or even 10% share they are not worth anything .
  - OkinKun
    
    I’d much rather have my game on the Oculus Store. Too much crap to compete with on Steam, and annoying greenlight process.
    - DougP
      
      Re: “Too much crap to compete with on Steam”
      Yeah – competition is so famously such a bad thing!!
      Wait…what?!!
    - OkinKun
      
      Just speaking from the view of a developer that would want their game to sell well.
      Your obscure idea of competitive fairness, does not play into this one bit. A developer has a better chance at getting their game noticed, and not overshadowed by a crowd of junk, in a new storefront like the Oculus Store, rather than trying to be on Steam, to “compete”. Your view as a steam-fan is worthless, if a developer thinks they’ve got a better chance of getting seen somewhere else. When thinking about markets, the places where there are more competition, are actually bad ideas. duh. Especially if we’re talking about something as new as VR, getting in at the grown-floor stage of a fresh storefront, at this stage in the industry, would be ideal. If a game targets the Rift, being on Oculus Home makes things super convenient for players.
      Why the hell should I care about competition, as someone who wants better chances, not worse. lmao
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      Then it would make sense to be on both platforms, one after the other.
    - OkinKun
      
      Sure, for some developers, they could do that.. But a lot of smaller devs aren’t going to go through the time/effort of being on more than 1 store, unless there’s a realistic demand for it from fans, and they stand to make more money in doing so.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      Competition is a must, as is junk.
      I see it as a good guide for us developers to see how not to make your game.
      On the other hand it also forces you to make your game better instead of a cheap rippoff of another good game in store.
      
      If a game is really good there is no reason to not being able to get greenlit, on the other hand also a good game people will buy.
      If you dont sell good you did something wrong, as simple as that and you should try to figure out what causes it and learn from it.
      
      Any sport in this world you have a lot of competition too, who says you be the best in it one day ?
      You only can become a winner to be a looser first many times.
      Thats how it simply goes, accept your losses and try to learn, it makes you improve if your willing to learn from it.
      
      BTW : Every store has junk, you cant convince me its not in occulus store as i seen many junk in there too.
      Else i just could talk similar and say the viveport also has no junk.
      Steam is not vive specific, you see that wrong it can also be for other VR hardware as the original Vive store is called “Viveport”.
      It is a nice VR store front and VR portal but it still has certain bugs.
      On the other hand it has also most stuff wich is on steam so i dont see the point using it myself as pc games are also still be played.
      This gives steam a better bonus ahead as people still play non VR pc games too.
      But yeah thats how I see it, steam survived a long history in gaming already, there were many more platforms before but they all died away in time.
      People which already did PC gaming over 20 years ago exactly know what i am talking about.
    - OkinKun
      
      Again, you’re ENTIRELY missing the point. Sure, Competition is usually good for the consumer side of things.. But from the product-maker’s view, you don’t WANT to have more competition, you want to go where there is less competition to overshadow you. This is simple shit, why is that hard to understand?
      
      And you know, even with it’s success, Steam can’t last forever.. And it shouldn’t. It’s about time we start seeing other storefronts get some sucess, even if they end up integrating steam into themselves somehow.
      You talk big about competition.. But you forget, Oculus is providing Competition to Steam itself, and THAT is a good thing. Steam needs some competition to keep them in line, they’re getting too big otherwise, and their consumer service behaviors are sometimes evidence of that.
    - DougP
      
      Re: “This is simple shit”
      “The is simple bull-shit” – there, fixed that for you.
      
      Love the mental gymnastics you’re going through, whilst also sounding arrogant (yet are only coming across as ignorant).
      “blah blah…competition is bad….”….. “blah blah….steam will go away because competition is good”. Seriously, wtf?!
      
      We get it – you’re a Facebook-fan (or just “paid to be fan”). Fine, but don’t try to use your mental gymnastics to explain it, as you’re embarrassing yourself here.
      Take your money for your shovelware sold in a walled-garden & quit commenting on the topic.
      Myself, I’m not taking $ if Zuck offers it & would rather fairly compete in the most popular distribution & ranking system that is steam.
    - OkinKun
      
      You’ve already lost, if you need to make the claim that I’m somehow being paid to say these things. Frankly, it under-hands the whole discussion when you start making such accusations. Clearly, I’m just wasting effort, trying to explain things which should be simple, I actually kind of agree with you in some ways, but in this context they’re meaningless to focus on.
      So.. Fuck you. I have to EARN my money through months/years of creative effort, before I even see a single god damn penny for that work. If anyone should quit commenting, it’s you. This discussion is clearly beyond you, and you’re only embarrassing yourself. Fuck facebook and fuck your mother, if you think I’m getting paid to say that. ;P
    - DougP
      
      Re: “fuck your mother”
      
      So eloquent. On par with the rest of your reasoning.
      
      Guess we struck home calling you out for what you are, either:
      1) Already bought&paid for whore for Zuck (spread ’em exclusively for him)
      2) Work for Facebook’s PR damage control – paid to post this crap
      3) Just a Facebook/Oculus fanboi ranting the competition is bad
      
      And…. LIKING your own post = pathetic.
      Seriously sad.
      Stop it, you’re gonna go blind doing that.
    - OkinKun
      
      LOL Don’t take it personally. I was just making a point, that if someone was being paid to make comments, they certainly wouldn’t take it that far.
      But quite frankly, you started it lol, by insinuating that I was being paid, that’s equally as insulting imo.
      Anyway, I’m none of those things. Just a solo/hobby developer, who’s been doing this since before the DK1 days.
      I just still can’t believe how thick you are, in regards to this business side of this discussion. It’s really weird. I guess I’ve wasted enough time trying tho.
    - merri
      
      All of this is predicated on the misinformed idea that Valve actually competes with anything on their Steam platform. Valve need some goddamn competition because it will only take a lawsuit for Valve to implement a few pro-consumer practices.
    - DougP
      
      Re: “speaking from the view of a developer” “Your view as a steam-fan is worthless”
      
      I am a developer, moron!
      Most likely since before you were born.
      So please don’t make some condescending & ignorant claims as if you have a monopoly knowledge about the topic.
      
      “steam-fan” – And where they hell did you pull that out of? Definitely now a repository of knowledge. [ suppository is more like it ]
      My POINT, with more knowledge & experience on this than you (see, two can play at that game) – is that competition is a GOOD thing.
      It’s definitely good for consumers, it’s can be an equalizer when it comes to setting pricing (value), and it can push for more quality.
      Basically the crap-ware gets down-voted & the better titles rise. Heck, default search in steam gives you this.
      
      Now….if you’re just into taking CA$H from Facebook to put out some crap-shovelware & not worried about making money based on merits – go for it.
      I believe the free(-er) market will win out & consumers prefer MORE options & competition.
    - OkinKun
      
      Clearly you don’t understand, because you’re STILL speaking as a consumer. You’re still disagreeing with the wrong thing here.
      As I said, obviously a platform like steam is good for consumers, but IF you are a developer, and you’re not worried about the morals of competition, then you’d have to be an utter moron to prefer to sell a game on Steam, vs a platform where you’ll get FAR more visibility. If you don’t understand that, it proves that you are not a developer.. or at LEAST that you are a moron with no business sense.
      If you are a developer, and if you’re smart, you should MUCH rather prefer to be on a new storefront, with less competition, and more visibility, and in this case, on a platform dedicated to VR games. It’s better to be on a platform dedicated to VR and nothing else, than the general everything store that Steam is.
      Competition is only good for consumers. It matters not for the developer/creator side of things, in this case.
      Political bullshit doesn’t have any place in this discussion. It’s laughably absurd that you’d suggest that the free market matters here in this discussion, in YOUR decision on where to sell a game. This is why I don’t believe you, you’re looking at this from the wrong angle, seemly incapable of looking at it, from the view of a developer. Otherwise you wouldn’t be arguing this aspect of my post, or confusing creative clarification for insults. lol
    - DougP
      
      You do seem a bit thick.
      
      Re: “Clearly you don’t understand, because you’re STILL speaking as a consumer”
      
      Yeah…right – it’s IMPOSSIBLE to be both a developer AND a consumer.
      Guess what – I can walk AND chew gum at the same time.
      Sorry it sounds like you CAN’T.
      
      Re: “you should MUCH rather prefer to be on a new storefront”
      Let me fix that for you:
      “prefer to be on a MUCH SMALLER storefront”
      Yeah…right!
      As a developer I REALLY want the smallest, new, unproven, most limited audience.
      
      Do the math –
      So how many PC gaming enthusiasts (potential VR buyers) are on Steam?
      So how many people (total VR consumer base) with VR HMDs (Vive & Rift) are on Steam?
      So how total VR consumer base (with Vive or Rift) are shopping only on Facebook’s store?
      
      Heck, from all the comments online from Rift users upset over the shady backdoor dealings, it’s clear even may Rift users will avoid Facebook’s store.
      
      Seriously, are you joking or getting paid by Facebook to post this crap? [ or already got paid for your exclusive & are trying to justify your $-loyalty ]
      Myself – I want to target the PC gaming community (current & future VR purchasers) & be target the majority of VR gamers.
      
      Look, we get it – sounds **like you took $ from Zuck in his attempt to “buy the VR market”. Your blathering BS excuses isn’t going to help you sleep at night.
      [ **Or perhaps you’re Facebook PR department still trying to positive spin the exclusivity crap ]
      However, if you are genuine & can use that no-walk&gum-same-time noggin of yours, you can think about this logically & admit that reaching the MAJORITY of VR users (i.e. way more than HALF, of a currently very small market) on Steam is the only intelligent approach.
      
      Oh yeah, AND it happens to be good for consumers at same time (not to confuse you with 2x concepts at same time again).
    - inwerp
      
      Thats not a competition. Crap games affect click-through stats and it ruins steam release sale-testing mechanism.
    - Raphael
      
      Must be because of the crap he’s trying to push…
    - merri
      
      What are you talking about? Steam competes with nothing. They have a practical monopoly.
    - DougP
      
      What are YOU talking about?
      I never said Steam competes – it’s a near de facto monopolistic distribution system.
      I’m talking about games/apps easily released on steam competing – sold & ranked by the community that buys them
    - inwerp
      
      +1000.
      After U4/Unity VR plugins release, Steam “Virtual reality” is such a mess.
    - Raphael
      
      You’d much rather have your game on a tiny platform that many people want to avoid. Yeah that’s really smart… :) Steam is well established for a reason. By too much crap to compete with on steam… you mean your crap will look bad beside some of the other crap.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      You make a good point, exactly a good point you make here.
    - merri
      
      Steam has a practical monopoly. They’re well-established because they’ve held onto that. That’s the reason. It’s the reason they don’t give a shit about anti-consumer practices UNTIL IT THREATENS their platform in some way.
      
      Refunds. Remember how we didn’t have those for 14 years? Remember how a year or two ago, it required international precedents pertaining to law, just to get them to implement some sort of refund system?
      
      Paid mods – remember how they were going to monetize the workshop, when they already have quality control issues?
      
      No, I would much rather Steam/Valve not continue their practical monopoly into a new branch of games. I would much rather Valve actually got some competition so that they’d have to at least show a little bit more concern for their customers.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      Do your homework first.
      
      1 microsoft store
      2 sony playstation store
      3 android store
      4 apple store
      
      Competition enough and i can tell you PC sales dropped huge after the market got pads, and xbox, playstation, wii and phones.
      Those markets are bigger as PC gaming and steam is not much in that.
      If you know Steam history so good can you provide 2 other mayor paltforms in the past which were competitors before?
      
      Ive been in PC gaming a lot, starting with being an organiser for huge LAN parties before internet was really a thing.
      The time interntet became more usefull for gaming (adsl) I owned a company doing gamehosting for AAA games.
      The reason why i stopped my company that time was simply the same reason other competitors stopped.
      The consoles become very popular as so the mobile games, that made it hard to rent out dedicated serevrs.
      On the other hand there was no way you could host PS or Xbox servers that time as platforms where locked down.
      Steam survived because they kept on going with PC gaming support where others left.
      And i can tell you Steam was that time for sure not the best platform compared to the others, even those platform were hard to run as most games still be bought boxed in shelf in physical stores too.
      For your refund story, you should go look more way back as digital content for many years was simply if you break the seal you could not reurn it, it comes from shelf boxed versions.
      It was on CD’s videos and games as people else would buy it, copy it and return it.
      It was to prevent this behaviour and now games are digital that makes a difference.
      All is logical if you know the history.
    - Andrew Jakobs
      
      Sorry, but I think you really underestimate the PC gaming community.. it’s still big, very big..
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      yes it is, and now VR will add even more again.
      But it was much bigger in times over 15 years ago.
      I dont underestimate as i predict actually it will grow now due to VR.
      But you also could see many pPC gamers had still no high end card for VR as the new game releases, quality ones were not that many anymore.
      For me as being a PC gamer 25+ years i never realy liked consoles as they were limited or even cant realy do any upgrading, making it get old very fast.
      Also palying FPS games with mouse+keyboard is what i liked the most, although VR aiming and shooting is way better, just locomotion is still an issue unless you got some kinda locomotion device added to make it more awesome.
    - Kalle
      
      Sadly not when it comes to pc games. You are comparing too much with other markets.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      Consoles was the mayor reason many competitors left the field in the past as they seen reducing PC gamers during that time.
      It is a long history in the past, valve still had their CS game that made huge profits on PC, during that time ther where just few PC games left most people would play online.
      Many devs went over to consoles that time due to better opeertunities and being more hack proof as there where many copy games flying around that time.
      As mayor PC games before the downfall were :
      CS, Unreal tournament, battlefield and COD mostly, the rest was all on low user base compared to those titles.
      
      Anybody can make an online platform, the hardest part is however getting people to move over and on the other hand new companies have mostly not the knowledge steam already has in house as they went trough a lot already.
      Steam was for sure not the best paltform during that time and i even refused to use it myself, but it has been improved a lot compared to that time.
      I would say steam during that time was an avarage platform not the worst but also not the best.
      I cant complain much about how it is now, IMHO its just fine for most of it what it offers.
      I see no reason to have another platform as thing work for me as I want it.
      Maybe because I was already in Games since the beginning and know how bad thing really can be compared to what steam offers now.
      On the other hand it is for sure good to have other platforms but most cases it works out more worse.
      I can tell you in China there are over 200 android shops, are you willing to go to each of them just to sell your app ?
      Personally I stick with the biggest one as a userbase is also very important, the more people see you game, the more chance you have to sell one.
    - Kalle
      
      Well, you dont need to sell your game through a “shop”. You can sell it on a simple homepage. At least offer the possibitity!
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      I can do that , although it requires some digital content shop on our website.
      Need to look into that if it’s going to be a lot of work or not.
    - DougP
      
      Exactly!
      Devs, particularly those taking $ from Facebook, don’t want to compete & have to put out a quality product – they just want a pay-day.
  - merri
    
    …as one monopoly can have our 30%, there is no reason for us to give other company our 30% share or even 10% because they are not worth anything, but the monopoly whose only interest is securing their software platform as a monopoly among hardware peripherals, is definitely worth it. lawl
  - Andrew Jakobs
    
    I’d rather just have my money from both stores… I’m not a moron by robbing myself of some extra money which I can use for another project.. But I would propably not do an exclusive with Oculus, and Oculus doesn’t demand it, if I develop for the Oculus I can also release it anywhere I want (hell I can even only support the Oculus SDK and still have it on Steam (wouldn’t make much sense ofcourse, but Oculus doesn’t forbid me from doing so, the only demand they make is if I want to get into the Oculus store, I have to ALSO support the Oculus SDK.. But then again, the Oculus SDK is still needed for SteamVR as SteamVR uses the Oculus SDK for Oculus Support…
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      My first focus is absolutely not the money !
      I believe that VR is going to be lots of fun and entertaining.
      Also i finally can make thing i never could do before.
      If people like what you made you make money anyhow. thats what i know from my past.
      If i want to do it for money i can be honest to tell you my enterprise business solutions and consulting makes more money as VR at this moment.
      The problem however is that it is absolutely no FUN but pure business.
      I leave that part now all slowly behind and all goes to VR and AR as it is fun to work with it.
      The tech gives you so many new opportunities to create so much better products if you open your mind.
      Our AR is going well by simply using phones and pads making marketing products and education apps.
      This is already hot and if you see how happy it makes people it makes you feel you did a great job.
      Happiness you cant buy with money, only illusions.
      If you develop with money in mind as priority your already wrong.
      I be scared to even try your product as maybe i would get a click banner in my VR session after each level :D
      Joking.. but you get the point, VR is about expierence and you should use the device that fits what you want to give on feeling to the consumer not about money, sorry doing that for VR makes you fail in most cases as you need to try to touch peoples heart in VR.
    - Andrew Jakobs
      
      But your whole post doesn’t compute with the ” there is no reason for us to give Oculus our 30% share or even 10% share they are not worth anything” because what you actually are saying, FU Oculus owners who don’t want to do business with Valve (as valve is also in it purely for the money, all they do is about advancing sales in their steamstore).. So if you really care about VR you would set aside your hatred for a specific company..
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      I dont hate them, rather dislike when people just telling lies.
      Thats a difference.
      The only thing i liked was that they at least starting bringing VR to the consumers but how they just finish it off when the time is there to deliver is what does not give me the good feeling.
      The not paying anything has simply to do that they are not good enough IMO, you would also not pay for a game thats in your opinion not worth it just to support the developer becuase you like games in general do you ?
      So my statement about that is correct IMO as i dont support companies treating their customers as they do.
  - Kalle
    
    Why not outside of steam and oh? I dont like being tired to a specific store platform. If I like your game I rather give you the extra 30% than to a drm platform which could be considered a monopoly.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      I decided it already just steam as it also can have rift games.
      Later it will be added to PSVR and Google Daydream.
      3 platforms for our game there is choice.
      All 3 of them are long time in the market already and deployed many games already.
    - Kalle
      
      Think you should offer it outside those platforms also. Kinda like elite dangerous does.
- DougP
  
  Re: “which are by default compatible with Rift/Touch”
  Which are by default compatible with a Rift system that happens to HAVE a touch.
  See – that’s the problems.
  Devs have to decide:
  1) develop (+design) a game with the majority of Rift users in mind
  Or
  2) only design around a limited (unknown) sub-set of the Rift owners
  
  It’s not Rift/Touch (that implies either/or) …when it’s only one or the other the devs have to target.
  Designing for both?! (xbox controller & touch) Pain in ass. Can completely change design of a game, possibly with huge comprises, and at a minimum way more work.
  - merri
    
    Uhhh… no. No significant, or notable games take a few months to develop. Developers know people will have Touch controllers by the time their games are done, or getting there.
    
    There is a window of 7 to 9 months in which THOSE DEVELOPERS’ AUDIENCES AND CUSTOMERS will not have what they need. Before that, they don’t have what they need, after, they do. The idea that developers would ignore this platform because there’s an 8 month period in which users won’t have a control scheme, is asinine.
    
    I made an app. I had to choose whether to make it for the One Plus One or for the Note 7, but the Note 7 wasn’t out yet, so I made it for the One Plus One. If I made it for the Note 7, no one would be able to use my app, right?
    
    What? The Note 7 is out now? Yeah, but it wasn’t out a few months ago, in 6 month window in which I released my app, so I didn’t develop my app for it. I developed for the One Plus One and I got some customers right away. win-win…?!
  - Andrew Jakobs
    
    Sorry, but a real developer also keeps people in mind with a vive who doesn’t want to keep standing around but also want to sit and just use the xbox controller.. A real smart developer just doesn’t target one set, but makes sure their game works with any headset, and support a lot of different (motion) controllers.. Maybe someone wants to use the Oculus headset because of it’s better comfort and better optics, but want to use the vive controllers, or someone wants to use the vive headset with the touch controllers.. Who knows, maybe Oculus might even adopt the Lighthouse tracking for their second incarnation or an updated CV1.. My bet would be just to support both sets (as having an extra headset should not be a problem for a developer, unless you’re not really serious)..
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      Our current game in Dev requires a motion tracked controller.
      If rift has it we will add it but still on steam only.
      We also like to add it to PSVR later on as it will work just right.
      We need to alter it a little for Daydream as the controller has motion tracking but not position tracking, slight different but not a huge impact for the game.
      Yes its not about buying the equipment, bough so many already with being more as half of it useless museum pieces now hahahaha
      But that is required for devloping a serious products as ahead you need to do R&D and prototype a lot on several devices.
      Now slowly some result are coming online , but the time we started there was not much data on it online, all just in darkness.
      I agree your point you makeing there
      HMD are many of them already very similar, comfortable is not the biggest thing as most people use VR only for 15-30 minutes in session.The excitement let them mostly forget about the device.
      The only thing that break most people VR is tripping or being wrapped into the wire.
    - realtrisk
      
      Rift more comfortable? Then why can I use the Vive for hours at a time with zero discomfort, and can’t use Rift for longer than 15 minutes without feeling like my head is going to explode? Vive is WAY more comfortable for people with glasses. Way easier to put on and take off, too. Especially if you have long hair.
    - Kalle
      
      Strange, I also have glasses and got no problems. Probably have more to do with which shape your glasses have.
    - Graham J ⭐️
      
      That’s great for companies with resources but multi-input support takes resources many indies don’t have.
    - VRGameDev
      
      Yea building a VR game that’s fun for standing and sitting is super easy. I wonder why no one has done that… I mean, it’s not like the types of things that are fun with a gamepad and fun with motion controllers are different! Oh wait, yea, they’re completely different. You’d have to build two games, at 2x the cost, and 1x the profit. Real developers try not to run out of money without making anything.
      
      “Maybe someone wants to use the Oculus headset because of it’s better comfort and better optics, but want to use the vive controllers, or someone wants to use the vive headset with the touch controllers.”
      
      WOW, you do not know how these systems work.
      
      Hint: Lighthouse devices (Vive) detect when they are hit by lasers from the base stations, the lighthouses are effectively blind. Constellation devices are seen by cameras, the devices are effectively blind. Lighthouses can’t see constellations, cameras can’t see laser sensors. Lighthouse can’t see camera.
      Question: Where are your hands relative to your head?
      
      To merge the two tracking spaces first Valve would need to add support for merging tracking spaces into SteamVR, and then you’d need either a device which supported both tracking systems (and that means Oculus would need to approve it, knowing they’re giving up their walled garden) or players need strap a Vive wand onto their Rift or some other nonsense.
    - Andrew Jakobs
      
      uhh, ofcourse SteamVR would need to be able to do multiple tracking systems at once, otherwise you’re always stuck to only one tracking system for any crap you have.. What BS is it that Oculus would need to approve it for SteamVR, Valve does the SteamVR part for the Oculus based on the OculusSDK..
merri

If you have to aggrandize to make your point, you probably don’t have that much of a point in the first place.
Andrew Jakobs

And yet, how many real games are out for the vive? Most are just unfinished short technical demo’s, nothing more nothing less..
And if you’re really going for real roomscale as a developer, than you might better get ready for being hit with the reality that most consumers just don’t have the space for real roomscale.. If you target about 2mx2m then you’re more in the ballpark for more consumers having space (and IMHO 2mx2m is NOT roomscale)..
Not saying the Vive isn’t a good set, but it’s the content on release which was just shit.. Not that the content for the Oculus was much better, but it had more actual games for the headset/xboxcontroller combo, which is what more consumers have room for.. (don’t confuse yourself with a regular consumer, we are not regular consumers, we are enthousiasts who make room for it, that’s a big difference)..
- DiGiCT Ltd
  
  Yes roomscale is a pain for people’s home.
  There is a lot of crap on both of them for sure.
  Roomscale will be more closed content for Arcade like this stuff.
  http://vrsoon.com/

DiGiCT Ltd

“Although a strong hardware foundation was there, the company didn’t want
to put the hardware out before they felt there was an equally strong
software base to support it, Rubin explains.”

Seriously come up with some better excuses, dont think all people are stupid but seems you guys become stupid yourself.

VR is all new and all content been made from scratch.
This is again some typical speech from a PR and people with fancy suits with some cash in their pockets talking BS and have no idea what they really talk about at all.

The truth will never been told just a wrapping story.
Please be honest and dont try to hide the truth.
It seems more like :

1. Work close together with Valve and break up due to hiring valve employees towork for you.
2. Did not have all Valve data to finish off the HMD and Controllers as Valve did it faster and more complete together with HTC partnership
3. Thinking they would own the VR market for a while themself by the rift and GearVR
4. Thinking being the Nr1 by having 2 billion invest from FB.

Only think better next time and stop telling lies to the world as it makes you loose you face everytime over and over again Oculus !

Ergonomics what a joke, did you think inventors of new tech in the past ever thought about that when they made the 1st car, plane etc etc ?
People easy adapt to it and understand new tech comes with flaws all the time.

Oculus is just trying to catch up now for the features it does not have at this moment compared to vive.
The next thing they need to fix is the gear VR as it has that uselss pad on the dide of your head instead f an controller.
Google daydream even thought about that already before they even made a platform as they know it is needed , they learned from Vice and cardboards reviews already.

The only way I will still deploy for occulus product will go trough steam.
Your GearVR is a no go, Google daydream is for us the way to go and ofcourse PSVR is a good platform too.

You guys had a good idea but how to win your trust to people in the world is for me now a total failure from your Oculus company.

I feel so sorry for the people whom bough your HMD, thats the only reason to give them some content from us via Steam but absolutely my company will never and ever going to do direct business with Oculus.

Maxime Pare

Well I feel sorry for people who bought the VIVE and only got a few 15mins demo to play with… So that’s the other side of your coin ;-) And I know a few VIVE owners who are all on the same page, platform is great, but where are the full fledge game?
- DiGiCT Ltd
  
  Hover Junkers is one of them, only they made the multiplayer servers player hosted which causes lag but for the rest the game is pretty ok.
  
  Also some xpierences are fine but dont realy have time to go play all of them as we are developing our own games and apps which cost most of our time.
  Its not just about the controller it also about making VR game content itself.
  You cant even see the gamepad in a Rift, in vive they show nicely up in VR and you even can pick them up as they are tracked.
  That itself is already a huge benefit on itself.
  As is the chaperon system.
  All those thing vive already offfers out of the box, Rift is now fixing that and catching up.
  All VR platform have lack of content.
  The time a car was invented there was also a lack of good roads for it, that is not the point here.
  Look at it in a wider point of view.
  - Maxime Pare
    
    I am looking at it just fine, my friends with VIVE are envious of all the Touch games announced while it’s pretty quiet on the VIVE front… Sure Oculus are jerk with their exclusive approach but, feeling sorry for a Rift owner is not the way to go, quite the opposite…
    - J.C.
      
      Both sides have issues. Rift has software but is still playing catchup to the Vive. Every feature the Vive has that the Rift doesn’t is downplayed as “only usable by a fraction of our customers”, but then another article pops up showing that they’re actively workin on having those features. Motion controllers weren’t a big deal, according to Luckey, at launch of the Rift. Now? Oh shit yes they’re a big deal. Room-scale wasn’t a big deal, because no one had room for that. Now Luckey is showing people that a chaperone-style system is showing up in their upcoming games.
      
      Meanwhile the Vive works great but it seems it caught every developer on earth off guard because there aren’t any full-length games for it. The best game for it so far has been Vanishing Realms, which has ps2-era art but runs like a champ and is super fun…for the hour it lasts. It’s a one-man company, so additional content is painfully slow-going. What I DON’T understand is why a group of maybe 6 people hasn’t already swooped in with a very similar, but much more rapidly expanding game. VanR’s interface between objects is super rudimentary, but no one cares that a key held near a lock auto-snaps into place. That’s fine. The combat is a bit random in terms of connecting with a hit, but NO ONE CARES. They want an RPG-lite that uses motion controls, and only one company, nay, ONE PERSON thought to do so. ONE. How in the fuck did that happen?
    - Maxime Pare
      
      Agreed that Vanishing Realm was my favorite on the VIVE, even if it was super short, but that game was made by a single person so kudos…Sure Oculus is playing catchup, but once it does, it seems to be in a better position then the VIVE regarding content, and every reviewer that had Touch in his hands says that it’s better then the VIVE controller, so I think that once 2017 is here, Rift will be superior then the VIVE content-wise and hardware wise
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      Actually, it’s possible the touch controllers could be made to work with Vive and touch like controllers can be made for the Vive.
      
      Oculus is also focused on that seated/standing gameplay so superior isn’t the right word, more like up to standards.
      
      They both are roughly the same with Vive sticking out more a bit. So it’s up to preference. Most folks are lazy, anyway.
    - merri
      
      “Motion controllers weren’t a big deal, according to Luckey, at launch of the Rift. Now? Oh shit yes they’re a big deal. Room-scale wasn’t a big deal, because no one had room for that. Now Luckey is showing people that a chaperone-style system is showing up in their upcoming games.”
      
      Right, because they were focused on launching. What’s the point you’re actually trying to make here? Motion controllers weren’t a big deal, but Luckey also lamented not having hands in VR, long ago. I figure you’re a big fan of VR, and have been following things for years now, so you must be familiar with what Luckey has -actually- stated about motion controllers and such. If that’s the case, then you’re lying.
    - Akeydel
      
      “pretty quiet on the VIVE front”
      wat
      http://www.roadtovr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/vrdc-survey-ar-vr-platform-development.png
    - merri
      
      What does a poll mean, considering you can selectively post them anywhere?
      
      The last time a very similar poll was posted, the results were far more to the Vive, far less to the Rift, and far less to the tertiary headsets altogether.
      
      So, I ask again, wtf good is a poll if so few people even know the source/saw it in the first place?
    - Akeydel
      
      Well im glad you asked, its from the August 2016 VR/AR Innovation Report from the VRDC, based on a survey of more than 500 devs; here’s the source.
      http://reg.techweb.com/GDCEU16-VRDCInovationRpt
      (BTW, the difference for titles currently in production is even greater)
    - merri
      
      Oh, the conference with generally little seating and an invite list.
    - Malandrix
      
      Too bad exclusives mean nothing when working around Oculus Home with ReVive takes 5 minutes :)
    - tvguy
      
      Quiet?? You should subscribe to the “this week’s vive launch titles” email. There are at least 10 new titles each week. What a stupid thing to say!
- OOLuigiOo
  
  Well, you don’t need to sine they got Fallout 4 and Doom to look forward to as well as that game from double fine to they are fine.
  
  Not to mention the savvy Vive owners who would make touch games work with Vive :)
  - DiGiCT Ltd
    
    Yeah those games would be awesome, hope ours will be picked up very well too.
    Arcade spaceshooter a more advanced version of Xortex from the lab.
    And no not a copy game, but a full blown game instead.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      Still WIP it requires alot of testing and reworking but yeah a small snapshot here for the scaling size of the room you start in.
      The console in the mid is exactly 2 meter high
  - Maxime Pare
    
    Yeah fallout 4 is intriguing…Will you be able to just teleport behind enemies and backstab them? Curious how this will work, I have gotten use to walking around with a joystick, let’s hope that’s an option and not just teleporting, teleporting will be the end of VR we need a new solution….I believe Doom was confirmed as only some kind of arena where you fight waves of demon, and not the full game…I might be mistaking…
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      Doom is using bulletime to move you at a smooth space rather than warping.
      
      So you know where you are when you get there.
  - Andrew Jakobs
    
    Sorry, openworld games just won’t work with roomscale VR, warping/teleporting is NOT a good way for playing ‘openworld’ games.. Closest to get to being able to actually play an openworld game is using something like the virtuix Omni, kat walk or cyberith virtualizer (which still are very crude VR treadmills at the moment)..
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      Doom is not open world.
    - Andrew Jakobs
      
      Nope, Doom isn’t openworld, but it isn’t confined to a small room either…
- Lutte Kikker
  
  That’s only a matter of time. Give the developers some more time. At least HTC didn’t make promises they never fulfilled (like Oculus).
  - Andrew Jakobs
    
    Oculus actually didn’t make real promises too, yeah, way before the DK1 they had, but times do change.. I’m getting bored with people coming up with the same boring excuse for hating Oculus (or hating it because of Facebook).. At the time they made their ‘promises’ the DK2 was intended as the CV1, and that would have been sold for the price ‘promised’.. But they continued with the funding of Facebook and created a much better headset (including good VR headphones, which originally wasn’t even planned for they headset they ‘promised’).. Even back then I was even flabbergasted they could deliver a good headset for the price mentioned and was more realistic and added a few hundred to that ‘promise’ for a real price.. And in the end they did get a headset onto the market which was very cheap in regard to the specs for which we at that time had to pay thousands of dollars to even get close to that (superior headsets go way beyond the $10.000 mark, WAY BEYOND).. But let’s face it, people just want stuff for free or at least next to nothing, only then they are satisfied..
merri

Talk about fudging a story.

“Did not have all Valve data to finish off the HMD and Controllers as Valve did it faster and more complete together with HTC partnership”

What “data” did they need? Valve gave them low-persistence, the most notable thing, but it wasn’t an absolute “need” to put an HMD out there. What do you mean Valve did it “faster”? Valve were already working on an HMD as a tech company while Oculus only existed in name, to one person, who was a 19-year old kid.

“The next thing they need to fix is the gear VR as it has that uselss pad on the dide of your head instead f an controller.”

The pad is there specifically because some people don’t have, or don’t want a controller. It’s an additive component, not subtractive, which makes you a hypocrite, considering that you claim Oculus is trying to get more features to “catch up.” When you see an extra feature, you call it “useless,” and needing to be “fixed,” but say it’s there “instead of a controller”.

“Ergonomics what a joke, did you think inventors of new tech in the past ever thought about that when they made the 1st car, plane etc etc ?
People easy adapt to it and understand new tech comes with flaws all the time.”

Oh, so that’s a feature you don’t care about because it isn’t done as well on your preferred platform.

Get a clue, kid.
- Akeydel
  
  Boy you just like to yell at people dontcha?
  - merri
    
    Yelling? So, that’s you’re only response? Some non-sequitur, baseless at that?
    
    Sounds like my ex, but she opted to use “whatever,” instead.
    - Akeydel
      
      dont worry i didnt even read this particular essay you wrote (besides the “Get a clue, kid”)
      It was a purely personal attack.
- DiGiCT Ltd
  
  Grow up kid, im pretty sure i can be your daddy.
  Look in human life history first and then start talking or did you not reach the age to go to school yet ?

Michigan Jay Sunde

If you wanted to develop for the CV1 before its release, you bought a DK2. If you wanted to develop for Touch, however, you had to be blessed by the gods from on-high, or develop for the Vive while hoping/praying that your ideas even transfer over like you hope they will. Not offering a PUBLIC developer kit for Touch absolutely felt like a punch in the face, as if to say “If you’re not already fully-funded and staffed-up, we don’t need your garbage shovel-ware at launch. Keep that mess off our platform.” The Rift is becoming a much more exclusive platform than I hoped – although I’m still anxious to support Touch because, seriously, it looks like such a huge ergonomic leap over the heavy Vive wands, especially thanks to gestures.

DiGiCT Ltd

Pretty huge yes, heavy? not really my bluetooth gamepad weight more.
If you use steam VR the touch controllers should work fine as someone showed on youtube.
I dislike more now about the whole oculus company, just the way they do like they think being god or what.
Expect end this year and upcoming year much more choices on VR devices.
I’m sure next year it will be much better in VR as well as in hardware as in software.
I’ve been visiting several companies and exhibitions in China the heart of world manufacturing.
Been seeing devices already finished and early prototypes coming to the market soon and next year.
It is sad that many of those companies did not hit this RoadtoVR website yet as there are many product worth buying.
Also valve opened their Lighthouse system, so expect more controlelr to show up.
Theoretically those touch controllers will be easy to copy for its shape, embed the lighthouse in it and your done having those controllers on a Vive with lighthouse tracking.
If those shapes are that good, someone easy can just crowdfund it to make it work on lighthouse afterall.
- Lutte Kikker
  
  Amen to that! People forget that nothing is forever and companies keep developing new (and smaller) peripherals. Let’s hope they manage to put everything in the size of a ring or something within 10 years (or 20).
  - Rainabba
    
    Check out Nod https://nod.com/
    
    I’ve had a unit since last year and it’s pretty impressive given how small it is (6-axis tracking, a track-pad, 2 physical buttons and 2 capacitive buttons.)
- Andrew Jakobs
  
  don’t count on it, they will have a patent (pending) for their design…
  - DiGiCT Ltd
    
    Pattent what? The internal hardware will be lighthouse and a slight defference in shape will already break the pattent as even simply moving 1 button on another spot.
    It is still just a simple controller, else you could just pattent every gamepad , racing wheel, mouse etc etc.
    You cant pattent much about it as many components are just general ones bought from suppliers.
    Pattent thing is typical american way of trying to get monopoly position to greedy take all the money and overprice products.
    I can say welcome to the new world and China as thing been remade here in just a few weeks after lauch, wanna lawsuit them, go ahead, maybe you can win it one day.
    The idea of a motion tracked gamecontroller is not coming from occulus at all, razor already had it and even a wii had a kinda of motion controller.
    Small modifications can be done , in general the patent is on the controller hardware as the total tracking system.
    Lucky enough HTC/Valve just give this tracking system away for 3rd party companies to make any device using their lighthouses tech.
    No licence fees attach.
    Anyway lighthouse tracking is currently the best tracking system there is for VR.
    Very easy to setup and very accurate in any lighting condition.
    Something that camera tracking has issues with is lighting conditions.
    If those controllers are that good, i will go personally on crowdfund and make those for Lighthouse, but i want to see if people realy are that hot after those controllers compared to the ones that come with vive as it need at least 1.000 supporters to start working on it.
    They easy can be sold between $100-$200 but im not sure people really are willing to pay for it if they already have the ones with vive.
    I can imagine people would pay for a racing wheel and a flightstick instead or even a keyboard or a true gamepad that is tracked.
    By opening those lighthouse tech, HTC Vive also opened the doors for the companies making those VR machines here, as that opens the market for them to go into arcade rooms.
    Oculus totally missed that market as cheaper alternatives are used for it for standing and seated expierences here.
    The latest exhibition for VR and AR here in Asia are all HTC Vive being used for the high end content, hard to find a rift, they being replaced by Chinese brands as having the access to OSVR it is easy to make this kind aof HMD similar to rift.
    The real power in Vive is its tracking system, no room in your house for it is good for arcade rooms business in which accuracy and speed is important on tracking updates as those machines you sit in are moving in sync with its content.
    Maybe one day RTVR will actually show those machines here on their site and will come with the same results i just tell you now.
    The real VR expierence will not be in your home but it will be in a new style arcade place.
    The entertainment industry will get a boost on VR again as it was in the 80’s 90’s.
    I tried several machines and its nothing compared to playing VR in your home, those machines just give you the missing part, which is feeling in motion in sync with content.
    RollerCoasters are crap in VR i dont like any of them, but that changed after i went into one of those VR machine rides on a roller coaster, it simulates much more dn it feels much more real.
    Same for a racing game it let you feel a little like you get g-forces, just realy awesome but too big for at home usage.
    Companies are already much further in VR as you can see here on this site, just not all is for consumers and that part is a little lacking here on this site.
    
    Want to see some VR stuff ???
    http://vrsoon.com/
    - Raphael
      
      Vive works in a very small space. Less than 2 metres square. I was on nolimits2 coaster sim last night and crap is hardly the word. It’s very good when you add in body vibration feedback so you feel every bump. G-forces or motion would be nice but it’s hardly crap just because it doesn’t have motion platform.
    - DiGiCT Ltd
      
      http://vrsoon.com/
      they exist with motion platforms already and wind effect etc etc.
      I got it even work on 5x5m but you need to use the wire to link them up together, as else you get inaccurate tracking due to only 1 LH can see you.
Fernando

‘Heavy’? What do you mean ‘heavy’? They are feather-lightweight, and their tracking is unparalleled. Try them before blabbing nonsense.
- sntxrrr
  
  Jeez, it’s a relative term. I can lift the Vive headset with my pinky but it is still a heavy HMD. Oculus has stated that the Touch has been designed in weight and center of gravity to be as unnoticeable as possible so the Vive controllers will, in comparison, be heavy.
  - Bryan Ischo
    
    Actually, “heavier” is a relative term. “Heavy” is an absolute qualification. The Vive wands are not heavy. End of story.
    - Jacob Roberts
      
      okay… so what is the absolute weight at which something becomes ‘heavy’?
      
      No, its still obviously a relative term, relative to the objects being discussed. Aircraft can be light. Watches can be heavy.
    - Bryan Ischo
      
      I would expect something to be described as ‘heavy’ if it requires significant force to lift. ‘Significant’ then becomes a point of contention as different people will have different opinions on what constitutes significant force. However, I have never heard of anyone saying that the Vive wands are difficult to hold for extended periods of time (even small children have no problem with them). Therefore, they are not heavy, by any reasonable estimation.
    - Jacob Roberts
      
      Well, I have no idea because I’ve never used Touch, but if the Vive wands are considerably heavier than Touch, I don’t see how calling them ‘heavy’ wouldn’t be reasonable.
      
      Regardless, no need to be defensive. Quality products are often heavier than cheaper alternatives. I like how heavy the Xbox Elite controller feels relative to the standard; I like my mouse on the heavy side.
      
      I’d guess that I’d want wands/Touch to be lighter because I’m waving them around a lot and considering they’re just representing my hands the majority of time, but I can’t say for sure til I try em.
      
      Best solution would probably be for light wands w/ easily swappable weights. If you had a game where you consistently held a gun or sword in your right hand, would be a pretty nice touch to be able to throw an extra pound or two in, while keeping your left hand light.
    - Bryan Ischo
      
      Should we call the Vive “heavy” because it’s heavier than touch, or “light” because it’s hugely lighter than the Sword of Damocles?
    - Jacob Roberts
      
      …… you tell me. Which of these three is not like the other? Do we really need to get so pedantic?
    - Bryan Ischo
      
      EXACTLY. We do not have to be so pedantic. Which is why sntxrr’s post trying to pedantically argue that the Vive is “heavy” just because it is “heavier than the Rift” was out of place and invoked this whole stupid debate.
      
      Really wish we just could have left it at my “The Vive is not heavy. End of story.” comment.
    - Jacob Roberts
      
      Ohhhhhh, so you were being pedantic this whole time to prove a point. Touché!
      
      Regardless, if the Vive is considerably heavier than the Touch, calling it heavy isn’t pedantic. It’s perfectly reasonable. End of story.
    - Bryan Ischo
      
      It’s not heavy. I have seen 5 year olds use it without any problem.
    - sntxrrr
      
      I spawned such a lovely useless discussion and I totally missed it :-) Let’s waste some more time!
      
      Somehow some people seem to equate “heavy” very strictly to “taking effort for an average human to lift” which is an extremely limited definition.
      I come from a design background and in the context of ergonomics and prolonged use every gram can matter. That is for instance why the weight of several professional gaming mice can be adjusted. And even though any 5 year old can lift any mouse a professional gamer might refuse to play a match because a mouse is “absolutely too heavy”. So lets leave the kids out of this discussion.
      
      Secondly, the OP used the term clearly as a shorthand, almost throwaway remark just to quickly and ergonomically emphasize the different design approach by Oculus. To then argue about this term in isolation is indeed pedantic.
      
      The Vive controller can be as heavy as anyone wants it to be.
    - Bryan Ischo
      
      Limited definitions are useful in topic-specific discussion. Open-ended definitions are not. ‘Heavy’ as a way to describe a relevant characteristic of the Vive headset is a useful term in this discussion. ‘Heavy’ as a stand-in for ‘heavier than something else’ is not.
    - sntxrrr
      
      I meant ‘limited’ in the sense of ‘of limited use’, as in almost never providing useful new information to develop a discussion which is what I argue to be the case here. So, no, a limited definition is hardly ever useful.
      I think maybe you meant a ‘clear’ definition? There I would wholeheartedly agree and is in fact exactly why I wrote my previous post. Things get so much easier when we know what we are talking about.
      And a relative definition can be fine as long as it is clearly defined, it is also most definitely not open-ended.
      
      A is heavy. Why? Because it is heavier than B and C where A, B and C are of similar kind. Similar, as in comparable. Which is what I did here. Heavy is a relative term.
      A is the Vive controller, B is the Oculus Touch. There is no C, there are no more VR hand controllers. It is a very small and closed set. This is the set the OP was referring to. And in this set the Vive controller is heavy.
    - JoeD
      
      The god damned Touch would have to be made of paper for the Vive controller to be “considerably heavier.” This is an absolutely ridiculous, and pointless argument. The Vive controller is light enough that you don’t even notice it in your hand while you’re playing. At what point does the law of diminishing returns kick in for goodness sake? Making things lighter and lighter requires more and more effort, tech, etc. Why make something lighter than something that’s already light enough? Good grief.
    - Pythagorass
      
      Heavy would likely refer to an objects weight, and since weight can be said to be affected by gravity and mass, (only the former can change) I think the confusion lies there. While heavy is often invoked in a relative sense, for everyday life, since we do not experience such large scale changes to our mostly fixed physical laws, he is quite correct with his language about it being an ‘absolute qualification’ of some object x [so long as we are on Earth] when we say some obect x is heavy, in the most techincally precise sense. Since it is obvious that we are on Earth he makes more sense, and is reasonable to think he is not being seemingly pedantic- even an English-speaking alien who knows nothing about our levels of gravity would agree with his definition of heavy, which was the contested point in the first place. Good day to you.
    - Jacob Roberts
      
      …Lol? Even in science (especially in science?), ‘heavy’ as an absolute qualification would be a pretty arbitrary and worthless term. When used as a relative term, like we do in the English language, its clearly a valuable descriptor. Is ‘heavy water’ a misnomer? No, its ‘heavier’ than a good old H20.
      
      Anyways, I’m clearly now complicit in the pedantry simply by furthering the discussion but… can’t… stop…
      must… not… lose… meaningless internet argument. Ha, good day.
    - Asinus
      
      “Heavy” is not an absolute qualification. That’s absurd. A heavy carbon bicycle is not the same weight as a heavy pick up.
    - Bryan Ischo
      
      I guess I was unclear. I wasn’t saying that there is a weight beyond which something is heavy and under which something is not, without any other consideration.
      
      Let me start again. The statement under consideration is this:
      
      “Jeez, it’s a relative term. I can lift the Vive headset with my pinky but it is still a heavy HMD.”
      
      I read this as implying that just because there are differences in weight between HMDs, one must necessarily state that the ones that are heavier are HEAVY and the ones that are lighter are LIGHT. I do not agree with this. The entire range of HMDs could be light, even if some are heavier than others. ‘Heavy’ is a term here that VERY OBVIOUSLY has a useful practical interpretation when you’re talking about a wearable HMD — would it be considered “difficult to lift” or “likely to induce discomfort due to its weight”? That would be a useful definition of the word “heavy” in this context. Saying that “heavy” must mean “more weighty than average” is absolutely not useful. Who cares whether or not the HMD is “more weighty than average” if it’s still light enough to be comfortable, thus eliminating any need to even talk about its weight?
      
      Even *if* you believe that any HMDs heaver than the average weight of HMDs must be called “heavy” as the O.P. apparently believes, the Vive is still NOT heavy. The Sword of Damocles was heavy. The Vive is featherweight in comparison.
Raphael

Oh god. He thinks Vive wands are heavy because they look solid and substantial. They are light as others have said. Being able to waggle 3 fingers isn’t a huge leap. Better things are coming for finger pointing.
- Sky Nite
  
  The touch controllers + Oculus headset feel like feathers compared to the Vive. Sure, the Vive controllers are already pretty light, but Touch is ergonomically superior when it comes to feel, at least for presence (i.e. feeling like your hands are in the game). The Oculus exclusivity Apple-like approach is definitely concerning, though.
  - Raphael
    
    If I want my hands in the game I will buy leap motion at some point (i.e. for cockpit switch control on FSX). Vive controllers are good for simulating weapons because of the elongated shape and more substantial feel.
    - Sky Nite
      
      Haptic feedback on picking up / interacting with objects goes a long way, making Touch and Vive controllers more immersive than leap motion finger presence. The “Vive controllers are better for weapons” argument is a common one, but I’ve found Touch to be equal to, if not better for inducing weapon presence. If I was used to firing real weapons, which are heavy, this might not be the case. However, both controllers feel like I’d expect a weapon to feel, which is all that really matters.
      
      I’m not saying you should buy Touch. I’m just pointing out that having tried both and being both an avid gamer and VR developer I’ve found the Touch to be ergonomically superior. That being said, the Oculus store is non-scalable and taking an elitist approach, so it looks like Steam will remain the de-facto monopoly. I’m hoping that Oculus will go back to a community-centric approach, but its continued slide towards bad community management and closed-system approaches is worrying.
    - Walter Sharrow
      
      The fact that YOU are aware of what a Touch controller is like but NONE of the rest of us are, *IS* the huge problem. We’ve all been funding and following Oculus from the start. For them to be holding out on us is a grave insult.
    - Andrew Jakobs
      
      You maybe funded them for creating a DK1, and if you had funded them from the start you even got an extra free CV1, so stop bitching.. If you only bought a DK2 then you just came to the game later and just paid what the damn thing was worth (nothing more, nothing less). Oculus doesn’t owe you anything.. I think the reason why they did it this way, is because even though the DK1 and DK2 were actually meant for developers, a lot of people who just wanted into VR bought them too and didn’t really add anything to the mix.. With the touch they only wanted people who really were developing and creating content, so they are sure there are actually applications and games when they consumer version releases and not a lot of ‘waste’ DKcontrollers having been sold to people who never intended to create anything, but only for playing..
    - popupblocker
      
      Well no.. They are not holding out… They have not released a retail version. Dev kits cost a LOT of money for companies 90% of the DK2 buyers were not devs
    - Walter Sharrow
      
      Think about it… Those kits bought them market share and showed off their product to the world. That 90% ensured that people talked about their product and vouched for it’s usability. That 90% got them the word of mouth that got Facebook to give them 2 Billion more. That 90% put videos on YouTube. That 90% is what put them on the MAP. That 90% launched the current VR resurgences! It’s crazy to think how quickly they forgot what tons of good word-of-mouth can get them.
      
      Now VIVE is the #1 developer tool. And I don’t blame Palmer, he’s not the master of Oculus now. I blame Zuckerburg. He’s a petty, greedy man who’s been trying to kill of Facebook with boneheaded decisions, and he’s using that same stupid thought process for Oculus now. All of these decisions stink of his involvement. It’s big money, Apple-eque thinking. And they don’t have the cult following to Steve Jobs this. This is the relaunch of the Titanic, the unsinkable ship heading right for an iceburg. Or Zuckerburg….
    - popupblocker
      
      You know HTC is a Evil Corp too right? And “Indeterminate percentage cut” Steam…
      
      Point is I think you are perhaps getting annoyed for zero reason. Completion is good. HTC for example have already said this week they don’t have a plan for a second headset. You can bet Oculus have the next 2 in progress. Perhaps this will kick them up the arse.
      
      You are griping that they have not given you a touch but again these cost a lot of money and well.., we all got FREE rifts for supporting. What the hell else do you want?
      
      The rift is a far slicker big if kit but we’ll have to see how the touch compares to the vive nunchucks
      
      Oh and rift is still 250 cheaper so if the touches come in less than that they are on to a winner. And who knows perhaps we’ll all get free ones!
    - Tad Springer
      
      I’m hoping Oculus offers A discount on Touch controllers for the early backers and CV1 pre-orders. It’d be a good strategy to make up for the added wait, increases some of the good spirit that seems to be lost by some of the community and also ensure they’ll get a higher volume out which would be good for software sales and therefore for increasing the number of developers that will create games for Touch. I’d love to see them offer them for free but I doubt they’d go that far – saying that though I couldn’t believe they have free CV1s to DK1 backers so who knows how generous they may be worth Touch (if at all). Ultimately though I just hope the price won’t be too high; the higher it is the more it’ll block future sales. Total cost needs to come in under the Vive if they want to remain the main player in the VR game.
    - popupblocker
      
      They are pretty crappy ergonomically buttons are in stupid places, the squeeze function is difficult and the touch pad shonky to say the least for anything other than larger swipes
    - dogtato
      
      I’m hoping for a glut of controller designs after the third-party program for Vive gets going, and maybe that is Valve’s real plan, to let someone else make the perfect controllers.
  - popupblocker
    
    Sigh… The exclusivity stuff is just timed exclusives.. HTC are creating exclusives for th Vive
  - JoeD
    
    Great, maybe someday the consumers will get to use it, meanwhile other consumers have been using the Vive controllers for months.
- merri
  
  They probably meant clunky, which they kind of are. I’m eagerly awaiting touch because granular digit interaction will be there, and interacting with things will feel like it’s in the hand and fingertips, rather than a sort of reaching tool in the way the Vive controllers currently operate.
tvguy

Heavy? Are you retarded? I use them for hours without strain.
- realtrisk
  
  Seconded! And heck, frankly I don’t give a crap if they’re heavy or not, if the rig is comfortable to use for long periods of time, it’s fine with me. I’ve played with Vive for around eight hours unbroken several times and never had any discomfort holding controllers or wearing the headset.
  
  Rift, on the other hand, gives me a headache within 15 minutes of putting it on. HORRIBLE ergos for people with glasses.
  - popupblocker
    
    Sorry don’t believe that in the slightest. Zero reason That should happen they operate in the same way. I wear high prescription and have had zero issues with either.
    - David
      
      So what specifically are you a developer of? From you comment history you seem more like someone that works in marketing for Oculus (which would of course give someone early access to the touch controllers as you seem to have). Devs don’t usually come off as so fan-boyish and are able to see the pros & cons of multiple platforms
    - popupblocker
      
      Not at all. I love the Vive just think some elements are like a Dev kit. System is a wir fest Headset is clunky, controllers rushed and not remotely ergonomic. Lighthouse are good.
      
      I’ve worked in games a vfx for 30 years
- AnastasiosAntonios Toulkeridis
  
  i’m sure he meant compared to the Touch controllers. Duh
  - tvguy
    
    No, he meant that the Vive wands are heavy. Duh.
    - Ray Rodimus Prime
      
      No he didn’t say that the Vive controllers are just heavy. There’s even a long discussion on his use of the word. He meant when compared to the Touch controllers, in COMPARISON, Vive controllers are heavy. That’s a VERY different thing from saying “The Vive controllers are heavy.” DUH.
- David
  
  What Oculus fan-boys are calling ‘Heavy’ just means well constructed to the rest of us. I’ve already hit my walls several times and the wall lost
TMT

I can’t say I followed it too closely, but I don’t recall being able to buy a Vive development kit publicly before Vive was out? I thought only selected developers could get one free. It sounds like Oculus is doing the same thing with Touch, and isn’t being any more exclusive in this case than HTC was with VIve?!?
sntxrrr

Both DK’s were also released to sell the concept of VR, to get as much people enthused as possible after the hype-burn 20 years previously. They don’t need to do that now so they use a more standard approach, just like other hardware like consoles are developed, to get more focused feedback and build that software base.
merri

“you had to be blessed by the gods from on-high…”

Or, you know, you could put together enough game dev demonstration in a day to get a Touch dev kit. Or, you know, you could wait that 7 month windows out.
mmorselli

most of time VR controller emulate some weapons, or sport stuff like ball, club, etc… So, I prefer a bit heavy controller than too lighter one.
AnastasiosAntonios Toulkeridis

MANY big developers have been provided with Touch kits loooong ago. So your whole point is moot

Muddy

Sorry but what a load shit Oculus.

merri

Explain?
Graham J ⭐️

Maybe. As I see it there are two possibilities:

As stated here they were ready but decided, in a keen showing of tactics, to hand the early proper VR market to HTC, deal with would-be customers being pissed off and force developers to release games without an obvious interaction system (or pay them not to jump ship) all so they could finally come out of their corner swinging.

Or they were blindsided by HTC, couldn’t design and build a comparable device in time, and had to delay months and months while they caught up, using Facebook money to convince developers not to jump ship as did so many potential customers.

Usually the simpler answer is the correct one so I choose the latter. Neither option makes them look particular competent, however.

Fernando

So glad I bought the Vive. For the next few years I will keep punishing oculus by not buying their hardware.

Lutte Kikker

I feel the same…their promise the Rift CV would NOT be mor expensive than the DK2 still hurts. Like politicians they made promises at the Oculus HQ….and we all know how this ended price – wise. Tits up!
- Roger Anthony Essig
  
  It was known months before preorders it would be around $600. They offically announced it. $1500 for 970 spec pc and rift.
  - Leif Erickson
    
    Sure they said the totally cost would be around 1500$, but they never stated how expensive the pc they potatoes it with would be. Up until preorder release, the closest number we had was “in the ballpark of 350”
    - merri
      
      It was definitely too vague to the readers, but within the context, it makes sense. The “in the ballpark of [our previous devkit]” comment was in direct response to the media reporting that the Rift would cost $1500.
      
      $350 was being compared to $600 as $600 was being compared to $1500. 600 is definitely more “in the ballpark” of 350, when compared to 1500. Still though, it was not a good way to put it for the readers, as they forgot about 1500 instantly, and started focusing on 350 again, rather than just assuming it could cost somewhere between 350 and ~800-ish.
  - David Mulder
    
    Except it was not initially possible to get the rift + such a PC. If memory serves me right cheapest option was $1700, and that’s just the cheapest if you knew where to look. Only once you waited a couple of months and bought one of the bundles were you able to hit that price point, and even those weren’t complete PC’s and lacked stuff like monitors.
    - Evangeliman
      
      Any gamer worth his salt should already have a comparable pc.
    - David Mulder
      
      So?
    - Kalle
      
      It depends, you can get away with a 5 and a half year old pc with a 2 year old gfx card if you have some knowledge how to oc your rig.
    - David Mulder
      
      Get away: Sure, but doesn’t change anything right? The statement wasn’t about already owning such a PC, but about buying the cheapest possible new VR-ready PC.
  - David Mulder
    
    Here is a more specific analysis of the $1500 comment when it came out: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2927836/oculus-rifts-1-500-total-cost-digging-into-the-truth-behind-the-insane-number.html
- merri
  
  Uhhh, what? They never said it wouldn’t be more expensive than the DK2. I’ll gladly eat a shoe if you can produce a link that proves or indicates that you are not lying.
- Andrew Jakobs
  
  oh please, they never said the CV1 wouldn’t be more expensive as the DK2, and when they said they wanted to put it in the market at an affordable price, it was BEFORE the DK2 was released, and at that time it was intended for the DK2 to be the CV1 (with some minor tweaks). So if they had released back then it would have cost about the price they wanted it to be.. But then everything changed when they were bought by Facebook and they had the extra money to do a much better headset.. In the end that headset is far superior to the DK2 but also with more expensive tech inside (and headphones), also it comes with the extra small controller and xbox controller.. And that made it all much more expensive..
- popupblocker
  
  S’ok the Vive is basically a Dev kit… The lighthouses are the only bit of the many many many wires, power units breakout boxes and the headset that don’t feel like a Dev kit anyway. Agree it’s a nice software experience but the rift is way more refined overall. 2 USB Ports and 1 hdmi – 1 headset cable no breakout boxes
Evangeliman

How is this comment relevant? Also the touch controllers are better. More ergonomic and, the beSt feature? No fucking track pad.
- Fernando
  
  It is clearly relevant to all the people that liked it, and because I said it. Now go cry in a corner. #lovevivetrackpad
  - Evangeliman
    
    lol enjoy using that track pad to move around in large world games when the teleportation dark age ends… to be fair though i hope they have 3rd party option for accesories like controllers at some point in the future.
    - Tommy Meliet
      
      so how will you walk around with the Touch controllers?
- Ned Hoon
  
  Cant say Im a fan of the track pad either.

tvguy

LOL what a crock of shit. If you believe this, I’ll sell you a sea side property in Arizona.

merri

You realize they had working Touch controllers a year ago, right?
- tvguy
  
  If they were working, they would have released them. Knowing that the Vive had room scale AND working touch controllers was a huge advantage for HTC. Any company with half a brain would have released their controllers to COMPETE if they were “ready”. Instead, they package an Xbox controller??? Don’t kid yourself, the controllers were NOT working a year ago, they were in beta.
  - merri
    
    “If they were working, they would have released them.”
    
    Why release something if there’s nothing to use it with yet? It’s right there in the article… did you not read it at all?
    
    release product > nothing to use product with > consumers don’t like product
    
    You and I, we’re okay with the Vive and a general lack of content. We’ll make it work because we know the ins and outs. The more common, casual consumer wants the package. You can release a headset with games and experiences. You can release a headset, but include the controllers and people are going to expect games and experiences. Some people like the Hanukkah way of getting their stuff, and some people like the Christmas way.
- RipVoid
  
  Well, they obviously didn’t have their ‘chaperone’ system ready.

Walter Sharrow

How nice that a tiny handful of developers got their hardware and the rest of us were forced to wait until those lucky few could cease the market for themselves. Playing favorites, fencing off their market, locking down their hardware… man.. nobody should be surprised to see Oculus lose this race.

merri

“a tiny handful”

You could literally put together a crap demo in the free Unity, UE4 etc., over the course of a few hours, and provided it as proof that you were working on something, and Oculus would send you a dev kit.

I got my Touch kit with about 12 hours of work put into a “game,” that I don’t intend to finish, though I will be making something else.
- Walter Sharrow
  
  No No NO! You stop RIGHT THERE! Tell me who you talked to. Where do you even find contact links to people in the know at Oculus?? I’ve worked my ASS OFF on VR stuff and I can’t even find beta testers, much less anyone in an offical capacity to show this stuff too. I don’t know who are of you insiders know, but *I* want to know them too! Name NAMES!
  
  Unless, of course, you’re full of it. I’m guessing you’re making up this story.
  - VRGameDev
    
    Going to have to side with Walter on this one… I worked with a team very closely with Oculus on a title that’s currently in their marketplace and we couldn’t get our hands on a single Touch kit… even knowing all the insiders. Maybe you’re some kind of VR prodigy merri, you should share what you’ve worked on :)
    
    When they say 5000+ dev kits consider that nearly every individual working on the project needs to have their own kit, potentially multiples… for an 8 person team I would expect at least 4 kits would be needed, ideally 8. Very curious how many actual teams received kits, and I suspect the fact that they don’t share that number is indicative of how their distribution actually works.
    
    Meanwhile HTC (pre Vive reslease) and Sony have been very helpful with supplying dev kits. Hell Sony even provides a PS4 Dev Kit.

TTman

Oculus trying to cover their ass for the wrong move. You can’t even begin to compare touch to vive! touch controllers are heavier, non-symetrical, flimsy(Will break instantly if sat on) , plus Bad tracking.. Oculus are lying snake oil salesman. ALSO, DON’T EVEN MENTION LEAP MOTION PIECE OF SHIT..

yobibyte

“Touch Controllers are heavier” Citation needed.
“non-symmetrical” They have chiral symmetry (like our own hands), and that is a huge plus in my book.
“Flimsy” We will see about that.
“Bad Tracking” Complete bullshit. There are a plethora of videos demonstrating your lies. Go watch some of RealityCheckVR’s Youtube content.

zuben

At this point, I cringe whenever Oculus says anything. There’s no credibility left.

Will Cho

HTC Vivers are more mad about this than Rifters. Funny. Vive wand is a little uncomfortable but we’ll see about the touch. I’m a Viver and a Rifter. Depending on comfort level, one of them gots to go.

Anton Antonov

Probably HTC Vivers that are mad about this are mostly just ex-Oculus Rifters.
- merri
  
  And people who only jumped on the hype train, who weren’t even around to see what they’re so angry about most of the time, going off of biased, pointed, painted information, feeding their confirmation bias.
  
  A ton of those people only ever jumped into VR in order to sling shit at Oculus when they heard particular pieces of news in more recent months/year or two.
  
  Most of those people were never “Rifters,” but people who took more than a passing interest with the sole purpose to sling shit.
popupblocker

Vivers seem to think Rift is out to get them or something it’s like getting pissed off about someone owning a different car to you…insane.

It’s all good competition and pushes things forward.
Graham J ⭐️

Makes sense. Rifters (who haven’t tried motion controls) don’t know what they’re missing whereas Vivers see larger and larger game studios releasing otherwise good games with broken controls due to Oculus/Facebook shoveleing money at them and dragging their feet on Touch. And apparently on purpose, even.

They’re fragmenting the market for their own gain and that’s bad for everyone. It’s reasonable to be miffed at that regardless of what hardware you own.
- Rick
  
  Fragmenting? Youre saying having different input devices is fragmenting… Yes I’m excited to have motion controls with my Rift(I have a leap motion to play with atleast) But to say that using the Xbox controller is holding VR as a whole back is ridiculous. There are lots of times I just want to relax when I play with my rift. Playing Kronos, Blazerush, or Lucky’s tale is great fun with a controller and I don’t feel those are missing anything not having motion controls. Don’t blame oculus for taking their time on software and hardware
  - Graham J ⭐️
    
    There’s nothing wrong with implementing gamepad controls in VR games per se, but having one HMD not support motion controls (not to mention launching with its own exlusive store and paying devs to be exclusive) does fragment the market.
    
    If the Rift had launched with Touch most games would be compatible with both headsets and that’s a unifying effect. As it stands most Vivers don’t want gamepad-only games (yet anyway) and Rifters can’t play most Vive games.
    
    If Oculus truly decided, on purpose, to delay the release of Touch, I am certain this fragmented outcome is the reason. They want to wall of a chunk of the market and lock them to their hardware. Giving devs time to be ready, my ass.
    - Rick
      
      I mean you could blame valve for coming out with motion controllers to early as much as you can blame oculus for holding off to better their product. Youre asking for standardization to early, the market is just getting going and there are lots of cool ideas coming through. Its 4-6 months in and people are already asking for standardization. It’s ridiculous in my opinion
    - Graham J ⭐️
      
      I don’t see what’s ridiculous about it. We already have it for the headsets themselves and for released motion controllers. Touch is the only holdout because they decided to delay its release.
      
      The topic at hand is why they did that. If they did do it to fragment the market then that sucks. If not, there is plenty of other evidence they’re fragmenting the market.
    - Graham J ⭐️
      
      I don’t think it’s ridiculous. In fact we already have that interoperability with headsets and other controllers; Touch is the only hold out.

Veraxus

If The Climb didn’t feel like it was concieved & developed with VR controllers in mind, I’d have called shenanigans. But they really should have launched with Touch. It would have avoided the whole XBox controller-related shipping delay disaster, to boot.

sirlance

My vive has been awesome….I do thank Mr lucky for bringing VR back on the scene…but once he sold his soul to the devil “facebook” I was completely turned off from purchasing an oculus, their early attempt to be a closed exclusive system, until the outcry from the fans in the forums did they change their minds…but it was an attempt never the less….typical facebook… I dont see how oculus roomscale could be as good as the Vive’s ….oculus has a shorter cord…no from camera so the chaperone system will be different…..I’ve made the right choice going with the Vive

Bruce

The longer oculus delay, the more I tend to agree with you. I do like the rift headset though, I like the built in mic and earphones, which is a lot less hot than the DK2 + headset earphones and mic was to wear. Although I have to say, the built in ear phones do get caught in my hair – every single time I take the thing off!

RipVoid

Really, again with the ‘we can but just don’t want to’ excuse? I’m losing confidence with this company.

Ombra Alberto

Vive users. Always complaining. Boring.

Nigerian Wizard

Typical fanboy response.
- Ombra Alberto
  
  yes, you typical fanboy response. true.

sambuev

I compared DK2 and Vive and I bough Vive! HTC Vive is much better!

VR Geek

Oculus has truly come to represent everything that is wrong with corporations. They goofed and if they just admitted, we would all be able to move on, but instead they are digging in their heels and making up stuff to fit the narrative they are trying to hide behind. Imagine if Sega back in the 90s said they had a fully functioning CD add on for their Genesis, but wanted to wait 6-9 months to release? We ALL know what happens when you fragment your own hardware and yet somehow, Oculus CHOOSE to do this. CHOOSE WTF? Utter BS. Oculus will go down in history like Xerox did with Windows as one of the ultimate business blunders. Their Touch lineup better really deliver or this will be the last nail in their coffin I am afraid. Shame as they owned this space up until their bizarre Xbox controller, forward facing, games that make you sick launch (sorry Lucky’s Tales). Where is the actual HTC competition as I doubt it is going to be Oculus.

VR Geek

Dear John Carmack, please tell your CEO that they need to come clean and while at it, provide all current CV1 owners with Touch to avoid what has happened to all those who fragmented their ecosystem. Maybe you can talk some sense into him.
- Kalle
  
  Fragmented? Ofcourse it’s just what the pcmarket is. A PC is not a console.
  
  Why should you have to pay for controllers if you don’t want them? Thinking of all flight/car sim people.
  
  Options are good!

Sam Illingworth

Well that’s clearly bollocks isn’t it? There are several excellent Vive games that could easily have been ported to Rift if the motion controllers had been there.

Andrew Mayer

“the company didn’t want to put the hardware out before they felt there was an equally strong software base to support it,”

This doesn’t really pass the smell test.

When has it ever been the case that software fully exploits hardware at launch? Sure, you want a few launch titles that can feature the hardware’s strengths, but if they’d released first-gen controllers with the headset they’d be miles ahead in terms of exploitable software by now.

The touch controllers clearly weren’t ready for a retail release at launch. Why lie about it?

Steve Luiting

I should stop reading anything that comes from Oculus because they seem like a bunch of morons. I wish we had bought all Vives instead of the two Rifts.

bschuler

They didn’t launch with them because they didn’t have the boxes ready yet. Only now are the boxes labelled Rift 2, NOW WITH TOUCH CONTROLLERS finally ready. Sheesh! People looks for so much fodder when there is none.. now if you can forgive me, I need to check mark something in my whatsapp app so it doesn’t blab to it’s parent company Facebook everything. Not that any Rift user should be worried either.. they promised not to spy on you.. wait.. they also promised whatsapp too? Oh nevermind.. Just more fodder I’m sure..

JustNiz

Yet more blatantly obvious bullshit from Luckey. At this point I don’t believe he is even actually capable of ever telling the truth about anything.

Nigerian Wizard

Palmer Luckey is like the company dog that everyone treats well because he is part of the owner but does fuck all in the company and pisses everywhere.

Roger Wallentin

That was a BAD idea… There must be a significant amount of VR buyers who went for the Vive instead of Rift just because it came with virtual controllers, regardless of how many titles supported it…

Software support for hand VR controllers is being added daily, us Rift users just need to sit and look at the hand contentat it until Oculus feel like letting us buy the damn things…

ummm…

I’m really growing weary of the vive vs. oculus “war”. Can’t we just all get along? This is what they want us to do; fight for the supremacy of one over the other. It is clear that Vive users got more bang for their buck, even if you thought vive programs were low on content. Now oculus is starting to get their hardware capabilities up to snuff and I’m supposed to be trembling that I made a wrong decision because the rift has the vr equivalent stylings of an apple product. I have many apple bricks sitting in my closet.

I just want everyone to be happy. I dont want to have to defend the vive all the time. It requires no defense. Rift guys, you dont have to defend your system either; much more so it seems a bit silly to have a selling point be that its a couple of grams lighter and “prettier”. There are many positives to oculus such as the focus on creating fleshed out content – the upcoming touch controls – a possible solution for room scale that may be just as good as the vives, for the layman.

Stop ruining the birth of VR. We should all recognize the weaknesses etc. in the gen 1 across the board. In a few months all the money we have spent will be worth nothing – once 4K and wider view range headsets hit the market. So, start saving suckers – your gonna need the money to upgrade and “keep up with the jones'”

Artist3d

I am still curious why Touch is not more like a glove with finger sensors? It seems natural in VR to want to pick things up with your hands in a natural way and perhaps even feel the physics of the item’s mass, hard, soft or even its weight?

TonyVT SkarredGhost

This explanation does not convince me at all

David

‘Feather Light’ touch controllers sounds like a recipe for disaster. I have already smacked my walls & ceiling (I’m 6’4″) several times with my Vive controllers and the controllers faired much better than room did. Those things are sturdy as $#%& and its a good thing because when you’re in a fight to the death with a giant skeleton on hero mode in Vanishing Realms you sometimes go over your chaperone boundaries… Can anyone that’s had their hands on the oculus touch controllers confirm the sturdiness of its construction?

Bruce

Perhaps they just didn’t have enough cameras to ship the touch at launch. It would have meant 2 cameras per rift instead of one. Maybe that was the “hardware shortage” that was delaying the rift headset?

Hapi hap

totally lame excuse, they did not ship it day one because they wanna charge more for it later as an add on accessory

companyoflosers

ive had the opportunity to tr a finished touch controller out and they feel amazing! excellent build quality and intuitive to use. i was surprised at how well they tracked too! there was no discernable lag or glitchiness wih the tracking at all! these things FEEL like you spent $199 on them

mohit patel

See Review:Oculus Rift Touch controllers make huge difference
Oculus has released a pair of new controllers, called Touch, which give you a controller to use with each hand.

Oculus Explains Why They Didn’t Launch Touch with the Rift (Even Though They “Could Have”)

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