steamvr-knuckle-controller — Image courtesy Cloudhead Games

Valve’s Knuckles Controllers Get Ergonomic Improvements, Begin Arriving at Devs’ Doorsteps

Jun 28, 2017

Having done the core R&D for what would become the Vive controllers, Valve is continuing to iterate on VR input. The company’s new ‘Knuckles’ controllers are not so much ‘held’ as they are ‘worn’, offering users a natural grab and release motion without dropping the controller. Since their debut toward the end of 2016 at the company’s Steam Dev Days event, a Knuckles development kit is now shipping to select developers and brings ergonomic improvements over earlier prototypes.

Though there’s no open application to get your hands on the SteamVR Knuckles dev kit, the new controllers are now shipping to select developers. Among them is Cloudhead Games, one of the world’s most senior VR game studios, and an early VR collaborator with Valve. The studio posted pictures of their Knuckles dev kit delivery this week.

Right in time with those dev kit deliveries, last week Valve posted new details and developer information about the controllers; a video released shortly thereafter showed the controller’s key capability which is analog finger-sensing, allowing each finger to be tracked along its range of motion, hopefully providing a significant boost to hand Presence.

Valve introduced the Knuckles controllers toward the end of 2016. From that prototype version to the latest dev kit Valve has tweaked the controller quite significantly for improved ergonomics, Cloudhead confirmed via Twitter, calling the latest version “considerably more comfortable over all.”

From a comparison photo between the original prototype and the new Knuckles dev kit we can see that the main grip has been increased in size while the mounting mechanism has been simplified from a proto-glove with velcro to a piece of fabric with a cinch. The center button has changed from a sunken oval to a circle.

From the photo we can see that the latest Knuckles dev kit still has exposed photodiodes, the sensors that cover the controller and allow it to be tracked through space; like the production Vive controllers today, we’d expect to see those encased in IR-transparent plastic by the time the consumer model is nailed down to protect the sensors from damage.

Another photo from Cloudhead shows the evolution from some of the earliest SteamVR controllers to the Knuckles dev kit.

Cloudhead games also confirmed that the Knuckles controller is backward compatible with existing SteamVR Tracking basestations (ie: those that ship today with the Vive).

Valve hasn’t yet announced when the controller will make its way to consumers or what they might cost. Though Valve plans to sell SteamVR Tracking basestations directly, our guess is that the company will leave it up to SteamVR partners like HTC to manufacture the Knuckles controllers en mass; with LG also working on its own SteamVR headset, we presume the controller design will be open for either company to draw from.

iNCEPTIONAL

The idea is cool but this is currently a very messy/clumsy looking design. Hopefully they can improve it by quite some ways by the time it releases.
- iKnowATrollWhenISeeOne
  
  Lol, nah. You just like to downplay everything SteamVR/Vive related.
  - iNCEPTIONAL
    
    Nah, it’s just fugly. But it has potential.
    - Get Schwifty!
      
      They are ugly to me as well – but if they get the job done, that’s the real concern…
      - iNCEPTIONAL
        
        Well, I’m kinda shallow and like my products to look pretty too. :-o
        
        Honestly, it’s one of the reasons I picked the Rift over the Vive (although, there were obviously other reasons I chose the Rift too).
        
        PS. I played the Rick and Morty: Virtual Rick-ality game the other day and it was great. :-)
      - Get Schwifty!
        
        Yeah coming (originally) from a design background I am sensitive to it as well… I mean, good design should always incorporate aesthetic but shouldn’t yield function…. to me the worst part of the design is the wrap around the knuckles piece, it just looks wrong somehow but it looks like it should work and get around problems of occlusion pretty well. What is interesting to me is that the design of the Vive front with the dimpling is just not present in the controllers… it’s the hallmark design element but totally lacking in the controllers…
      - J.C.
        
        The dimpling is missing from these for two reasons:
        1: these are not commercial units, they’re still technically prototypes.
        2: They’re not specifically associated with HTC. It’s more likely that they’ll show up with LG’s headset.
        
        Being concerned with how the devices look is…premature. Worry about that when they’ve fixed a LOT of the functionality issues VR currently has.
        
        Depending on what the LG headset offers, I may be selling my Vive to switch to it. Right now, it feels like all these things Valve has been showcasing is going to be on LG’s headset…the controllers, new lighthouses. I doubt they’ll have eye tracking, that’s likely Vive2/Rift2 tech.
      - Get Schwifty!
        
        Not really “concerned”, but…
        
        Well, on #1 I doubt that is going to make any difference, but #2 _could be_, though I doubt anyone here is under the impression these are for anything but HTC primarily though certainly they will be used with LG as well.
      - Caven
        
        The prototype Vive wands looked quite a bit different than the final retail version, even though the wands had similar overall shape and functionality. That’s why J.C. is pointing out that they’re prototypes–we’ve seen the visual change happen before with the controllers.
      - Get Schwifty!
        
        Yeah I expect them to change a little but not much. I doubt we will see serious changes to them if they are hitting devs… at least that is how Touch played out.
      - RavnosCC
        
        But the wraparound resembles gauntlets, and I like that.
      - iKnowATrollWhenISeeOne
        
        iNCEPTIONAL and Get Schwifty… lmao. Tit tat, tit tat, eh?
        
        But maybe you guys are right. Coming from a technical background, I prefer my products to function well over looking “pretty”. It’s one of the reasons I picked Vive over the Rift (although, there were obviously other reasons I choose the Vive too). Not to mention look is subjective while functionality is not.
        
        That would explain our different thinking. Still, these two stroking each other… lol.
      - iNCEPTIONAL
        
        It’s just a shame you must have got most of the technical information wrong then: Because there’s very little about the Vive that’s technically better than the Rift, and just as much stuff about the Rift that is technically better than the Vive. So, if that was your reason for picking a Vive over the Rift, it was a kinda stupid one imo. But, hey, you make your bed . . .
      - Caven
        
        A complete absence of motion controls and very limited room-scale support don’t sound like improvements over the Vive. Sure, that’s not the case with Oculus now, but for quite a few of us, it was a major technical consideration at the time of purchase.
      - Adam Aragon
        
        it’s pretty widely accepted that the Vive is demonstrably better than the Rift, in terms of Room Scale Tracking, and general ecosystem. You can google away which is better and most publications have recommended the Vive. They’re very close but the vive simply has more. Just saying if you’re going to say ‘the technical information is wrong’ well then, you’re wrong. The resolution is almost identical, the general quality on both systems is very similar, the vive just has more/bigger features. Making it edge out the win ‘technically’ or otherwise.
      - D3Pixel
        
        Stats only go so far. Real world tests with your own eyes is the best you can get.
Ombra Alberto

Very beautiful.
- Get Schwifty!
  
  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder – to me they look rather homely. That being said from under a HMD they all look alike ;)
  - Doctor Bambi
    
    Keep in mind these are still just Valve dev kits. It’ll be interesting to see what manufacturers do to pretty them up for consumer release. But yeah, I agree, in their current form they look a little clunky still.
  - RavnosCC
    
    rather, they look like whatever you can imagine!
  - Jason Storey
    
    well look at set 3, I have a pair of those at home. they looked nothing like the final commercial set 4. same goes for the dev kit at the end.
Lucidfeuer

Wow HTC are very bad at conceiving products and devices aren’t they.

These look to be unpractical as-bulky controllers, with what seems to be out of reach inconfortable touch pads and straps around the hands that you have to set-up every time someone uses them, but you know you won’t because that’s fucking annoying and you’ll end with somewhat always too lose or tight straps floating around your hands.

When smartphones get integrated Wifi.ad and the right codecs compatibility, I’m definitely looking into VRidge for wireless experience showcases with Nolo.
- Tony Murchison
  
  I’d rather give them the benefit of the doubt. The straps have obviously been designed to be tightened easily and quickly, and we know nothing about their bulk or comfort yet. Either way, being able to open your hand and move your fingers would seem to me to be worth the single pull on a wire.
  
  I appreciate that new VR hardware is a sensitive issue on this website, but there is really no reason to knock this design yet. Maybe it will turn out to be awful, as you say, or maybe they’ll be amazing and change the face of VR. Basing the comfort of a product on a couple of pictures, and then insulting the company off the back of that, seems a bit premature.
  - Lucidfeuer
    
    We’re talking of a multi-billion company, please don’t serve me that “benefit of the doubt” BS like they were some struggling up-and-coming start-up.
    
    There are product you can be doubtful or curious about, this one already gives enough factual elements to be judged pragmatically, my opinion won’t change when I’ll try them because they already are what they are.
    
    I’ll let you temper, I can’t bring myself to do that at that level.
    - David Herrington
      
      A large developer, Cloudhead Games, says the Knuckles are better than current gen Vive controllers… How can you be so negative when you haven’t tried it and the only information is positive??
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        I’m not saying it’s not better than Vive controllers given how easy that is, I’m saying that relatively, these are still bulky, unpractical and not so innovative controller, since in fact the only addendum is to mimic Oculus Touchs hand movement detection but with a worse design.
        
        Never having tried or tested something after the final specs or device was already announced, and always speaks for itself when you can project, has changed my mind.
      - David Herrington
        
        Actually, having the strap on the Knuckles allows you to let go entirely of the controller which the Touch controllers can not do. This increases immersion by allowing you to really let go of objects instead of just using triggers while still holding something.
        
        On top of that, these controllers probably have some features we haven’t heard yet as developers are under NDA. Denny Unger said that there was something else about these other than capacitive touch that he couldn’t talk about.
        
        http://www.roadtovr.com/impressions-valves-new-vr-controller-prototype-denny-unger/
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        This is not a new idea, and the strap idea works if the controller is small enough so as not to occlude or limit the hands movements. It’ll be fun to pick a fun or sword with it, but the added bulk and micro-time to strap yet two other components is further pushing VR confort back. Also I already see it being unpractical for people with small hands/thumbs.
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        You’re overthinking things. It may not be impractical in the end. Besides, ever held a sword/gun. You maybe surprised at how it feels compared to these.
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        “You’re overthinking things”. Yes, that I absolutely do.
      - Gus Bisbal
        
        Luciffeuer, do you know why the controllers are designed like they are? Are you A steam VR Licencee? Do you have a development kit? Have you designed your own controllers and faced the difficulties of their morphology while still being tracked without occlusion? These trackers are the beta, they are a little unfinished but “Billion dollar company, they should do better….blah blah bullshit bullshit” do you know why they are they way they are? Because if you don’t then you’re just saying I want them different and have no idea how that could be done. The finish is not a perfect standard but a lot of what you talk about is out of total lack of experience with this technology and its limitations. The “I expect better from such a large company” has nothing to do with what they did its you just wanting what they have not produced. Like looking at someone in the olympics in the 100m sprint and saying they should have run faster. Alright. If you think so. That opinion is not thought leadership. Its just complaining.
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        “I want them different and have no idea how that could be done”
        
        That’s the only thing I’ll reply to: yes I do. Which does in no way diminish the legitimacy of any, mine or others, criticism when due, especially when backed by overall market numbers and consumer reactions.
        
        But your typical “if you’re not doing it, then you can’t be right over people in position of status, brand or institution” speaks volume about your approach of things, so let me guess: you haven’t invented a single thing in your life that significantly changed the world, a domain or a portion of it? Well I did, and that’s my school, yours being “politics and traders must be right, because they’re politics or make money” instead of criticising back my points with counter-arguments…so I anticipate any debate will stop there.
      - Gus Bisbal
        
        Ok, lets see it. What did you invent that changed the world. Say it here or its all BULLSHIT. Thats what you do dude. Big note yourself with no proof what so ever of your claims. You have done it before here and your doing it now. What did you invent, I want website, awards won, accolades given, reviews that state this is amazing. Nothing from your mother saying your amazing, People who don’t know you. Cough it up.
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        Then that’s bullshit ;) Like I need to prove anything for a person like you, I repeat, -like you-.
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        Welp, anything can change in the consumer version many months ahead. You’ll never know it’s design by then.
    - Tony Murchison
      
      I apologise if I’ve caused you any undue distress. That was never my intention. I’ve been trying to understand your reasoning behind this, so please bear with me for a moment.
      
      From your comments, you seem to be saying that it is bulky, unwieldy and non-innovative. The first is true, although I must confess I don’t consider it as important as you do. If the Touch proved anything, it’s that bulk is considerably less problematic when the weight is distributed well.
      
      The second you frankly do not know. You haven’t tried it. I haven’t tried it. I’ve spent a while looking for comments from the people who did try it, and they seem to be pretty consistently convinced that the hand presence is better than the Touch, while the ergonomics are roughly on par. I definitely wouldn’t describe the Touch as unwieldy.
      
      As for innovation… I don’t quite understand this. What is innovation in VR controller design, according to you, if this isn’t it? The Touch was as much an incremental change from the Vive wands as this is to the Touch. Why is one update more important than the other, according to you?
      
      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to discredit your opinion. I’m just trying to understand why so many people applaud this next step in VR when you so obviously dislike it.
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        You didn’t cause any distress, it’s the internet.
        
        Most people think in subjective contextual terms, they are the same people who raved about VR being the “future now” in the 90s. I think in relativistic contexts and sometimes prospective or analytic matrices: when you take a step back and another until your reach a viewpoint which can projects most common consumer thoughts, you get a relatively better image about whether the product you are being sold and passionate about from an amateur/professional stand-point, is actually anywhere near a good pro/consumer products that will sell.
        
        Then there’s the abstract (yet rationalizable) magic of conception and intuition.
        
        I’m not saying these are crap or worse than previous Vive controllers, I’m saying they are as bad as the previous ones in relativistic terms. You’re not ignoring the fact that the sales number for devices supposed to be as paradigm shifting as VR headset, in a context where people buy hundreds of millions of smartphones, keyboards, screens, tablets, pcs or consoles, are pretty terrible.
        
        People find all sorts of excuses that don’t make sense or even exist from a marketing analytics or business standpoint like price, popularity, content…the simple truth is that relatively bad products from the Vive or Oculus or the Wands and Knuckles (Oculus Touch get a pass because they have the decency of being well design and crafted as they could be used for any game, VR or not) have absolutely no reason to move big or even significant adoption volume in the state being, because they are far from what a VR headset is supposed to be. In fact, I’m ready to bet not many people or no one at Valve, Oculus or Google can answer this question: what are VR headset supposed to be anyway?
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        W/e it ends up being in the future that meets all expectations. There, question answered. :)
        
        But good luck getting there starting from scratch w/ limited funds and ideas, etc.
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        Ah yes, “whatever” magic, luck, random event.
        
        Also that’s the point, I don’t criticise small studios or start-up as much as I do, as everybody should, multi-billions companies who have a responsibility in making business, meaning selling, meaning making viable products, which going by the numbers, they don’t.
      - Sponge Bob
        
        perhaps you should know that multi-billion dollar companies are only good at stealing IP from startups or buying those at the very best
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      It’s adorable you think you think dev kit designs and consumers designs are always the same :)
      
      Lets wait until it looks pretty to ship to developers, oh how silly you sound.
      
      the Xbox X dev kit has an fps counter on it.
- Jackal
  
  This was made by valve, also you can make all these judgements without ever actually using them? Amazing!
  - Lucidfeuer
    
    Well I have too if I want to be paid. In fact the more I’ve been doing it, the better I get paid, but for that you have to be in frame and on point of course.
- Mei Ling
  
  The ultimate user input method would be to tap into your brain but that’s a very long distance away. The second best and practical method would be to have the device track your hands, like leap motion, and some sort of ultrasonic frequency resonance doohickey for the haptics. Best of both worlds i.e. your hands are free and you have some form of force feedback. Bear in mind that using a method like this means you then have to figure how to enable locomotion practically which leads to omni-directional treadmills and what-have-you.
  - Sponge Bob
    
    leap motion is doa for precise motions like drawing
    ultrasonic haptics ? on the back on your hand ??? – there is nothing upfront
    doa
    - Mei Ling
      
      Don’t be so cynical; things may change in the future and they will.
      - Sponge Bob
        
        i’m not cynical – just realistic
        means I know physics better than you do
      - Mei Ling
        
        Lol someone who thinks they know physics but in “reality” they’re probably a cleaner.
      - dogtato
        
        lol someone has never seen good will hunting
      - Mei Ling
        
        You’re right. Let’s change it to McDonald’s shift worker.
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        Sponge Bob, what Mei Ling talks about is already actual reality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IhQnWb44zk
        
        Then of course it’s a matter of “transistor” miniaturisation.
      - Sponge Bob
        
        dude,
        i knew about this stuff for a long time
        there is company in England called ultrahaptics which makes those arrays of ultrasonic transducers and feeds them phase-different signals from multi-channel DAC or something
        expensive and impractical for now but the main problem for VR is that there is nothing in front of you to project those sound waves back to your hands
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        Hence bracelets. Have a little imagination, plus there are countless other ways to induce haptic feedbacks to the hands.
      - Sponge Bob
        
        imagination does not help when you are up against physical constraints
        speed of light or speed of sound
        the fact that neither can go through matter like your clothing or your body
        what’s the use of bracelets “?
        I tested Myo bracelet and found it useless -you have to go through calibration process every time you put it on or move it – useless toy
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        “speed of light or speed of sound, the fact that neither can go through matter like your clothing or your body”
        
        Hum…you should read on some more Wikipedia, as well as New Scientist, Quanta, Nature&Science, MIT Tech Review etc…
      - Sponge Bob
        
        dude,
        
        I have a lab in my garage – a real electronics lab
        I can actually test physical limitations of vive lighthouse tracking – with the fast oscilloscope, yeah
        and you read those papers by useless academics
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        …what you said about about particles and waves is heavily false. You should look-up on the actual science, maybe even the test the photon detector and double-slit experiments in your garage…
      - Sponge Bob
        
        dude
        
        I just said that neither light nor ultrasound can go through the tiniest shield like part of your hand or your clothing – you always need a direct line of sight (well, with ultrasound there is a bit of diffraction around small obstacles but you don’t want that)
        and about 100% of ultrasound gets reflected back from hard surface and its gets absorbed by soft surface
        what is false here ?
        photon detectors ???
        I do have modulated IR detectors from Triad Semiconductor to build custom lighthouse tracking devices – those work very well but still not well enough for me
        With all due respect, I do not think that you are at this level
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        Light does go through objects, for exemple there is such a thing as subsurface scattering. Put your hand in front of a light and you’ll see it glow red. Or put a photon detector behind a hard concrete wall, and you’ll realise that regularly some of the photons get detected as they pass through the wall. Delve deeper into quantum physics, mainly the infamous double-slit experiment and you’ll see that it’s even more complicated. As for the specific topic you mentioned: http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v10/n1/abs/nphoton.2015.234.html or https://arxiv.org/pdf/1011.3741.pdf
      - Sponge Bob
        
        LOL
        You must be some academic type
        I was too – didn’t make me any money at the end
        just how those experiments can be possibly related to HARD line of site limitation of octupus cameras or vive lighthouses ???
        might as well go google soli project – at least it worked somehow
        or polhemeous ac magnetic field tracking – aka Razer Hydra
        if you pump couple megawatts into it it might be able to track HMD at 3 m… if it does not explode before LOL
  - Lucidfeuer
    
    The second method your talk about, yes this is clearly the best direction although ultrasonic-haptic or resonance-haptic or transcutaneous-haptics are unlikely to be there until 10-15 years in the future.
    
    To that I would add a small, finger attached remote is probably going to be best practice for movements, pointers, interactions, feedback for a long time.
    - Sponge Bob
      
      and how are you gonna track that finger attached remote ?
      
      with 2 lighthouses or 3 octopus cameras ??? LOL
      - Lucidfeuer
        
        You know there are already tons of tracked mobile headset controllers out there?
      - Sponge Bob
        
        what do you mean by “tracked” controllers ? I haven’t seen any yet…
        
        Rotationally “tracked” like useless GearVR or daydream controller ? or fully positionally and rotationally tracked like Nolo (BUT… to external base station) ?
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        Octopus…I see babyface finally got his wish.
      - Sponge Bob
        
        octopus shall die
        vive will die too
        as for PSVR – they were never even serious about high-end VR – its just making money for them in this early market
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        But Steam VR shall forever live on :D
- Sponge Bob
  
  did you get your Nolo ?
  still waiting for mine…
  - Lucidfeuer
    
    Yup, last week. There’s a bit of latency with Vridge otherwise it works great if the base is mounted correctly.
- Quotemequoteyou
  
  Well moron these have nothing to do with htc. If your going to talk shit at least read the article. You sir are garbage.
- Laurence Nairne
  
  These aren’t HTC, they’re Steam VR. HTC just utilise and personalise Steam VR hardware and software to make their own kit. It’s been tricky to distinguish the difference between the two companies in this arena until now, as LG are entering the fray of SteamVR evangelists.
- OOLuigiOo
  
  With not so immersive controllers :)
  
  However, you’re not a dev so you aren’t getting this version.
  
  You’re just wastin your energy whining over nothin.
  
  And you act as if you can’t fit your hand in pre adjusted straps.
  
  Besides, these are NOT the HTC brand. Wait for HTC to redesign them.
  - Lucidfeuer
    
    And how much are you paid, unless you’re doing this forum PR for free?…
Konchu

Looks fun but I am really more interested in a good glove controller. I like the idea of using gloves in conjunction of other physical prop controllers.
- David Herrington
  
  With plain glove controllers, there is no tactile feedback from an object so a lot of object interactions feel fake and remove immersion. These interactions are common in most games like holding a gun, flipping a switch, and picking up a tool.
  
  Holding a controller actually increases immersion in those instances. With Touch and Knuckles controllers, you can actually “let go” and pick up those objects. With Knuckles controllers specifically, the analog finger-sensing, allows each finger to be tracked along its range of motion. Effectively tracking each finger like a glove controller would, thus negating the need for a glove controller.
  - Mei Ling
    
    There’s also a problem with full locomotion using gloves because there’s no practical way to navigate within the virtual environment without using an additional device that tracks your leg motion. Current solutions from Oculus and Valve allow full locomotion because they have a touchpad or joystick of some kind.
    - Lucidfeuer
      
      I think a locomotion remote of sorts is going to be around for a long-time because even the smallest threadmill is always going to be less practical and more expensive than remote.
      
      But I don’t think the locomotion challenges is in physical hardware, rather I think it’s in very subtle cognitive design of VR experience which can enable users to roam freely while standing still in a way that “untethers” their virtual movements from their body/brain expectation so as not to create sickness or discomfort.
      - Laurence Nairne
        
        This could be solved with robust gesture recognition. Running on the spot would move your hands in a predictable (within a margin of error) pattern to generate locomotion in game. Obvs there’s a lot of buggering around with speed of motion, and walking is less running on the spot, more swinging your arms listlessly, but hey! There’s options.
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        How many folks are gonna swing their arms running across a wasteland?
        
        Gotta do better, This ain’t a jogging simulator.
  - Konchu
    
    Though I do like the idea partially and will probably buy them,I feel some of the gloves that have been prototyped have awesome potential. The one for instance those is using robotics or air bladders to give resistance. And others techs can put individual haptic feed backs on each finger and even hot and cold sensations. And ultimately super actuate finger tracking for each finger instead of a simple check that this finger is down or not.
    
    I guess I want both, as is I could now use a Vive Wand with some neat gloves at the same time. But things like the touch controllers or the Knuckles will not work this way. You are kind of all in with these kind of inputs they are a great all in one experience but are limiting in their own way as there is no way to can hold something else while using these.
    
    With a glove controller I feel you could actually type on virtual interfaces and have even more immersion overall. I could see touch applications like sculpting could be more natural. having props with weight is good for immersion being able to hold a virtual gun reach down grab a virtual clip and feel in and put in in the gun. Grabbing a door handle and really feeling it world be awesome.
    
    I have felt some amazing haptics on the Vive, nVidia real nails in with their free carnival game so I’m sure the Knuckles will be awesome here in their own way. I just feel the other tech has more potential albeit more likely to fall under their own weight and not happen.
    - dogtato
      
      It’s a wonder the vive controllers handle the abuse they get. I worry that anything more mechanically complicated will be rife with issues. The air bladders might be practical, but anything exoskeleton-like is just one wall punch away from being garbage.
      - RFC_VR
        
        Vive controllers super tough…hands not so much. Virtual reality vs. physical reality=ouch https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/baa466eca345ce301bff523e47739ec86bc3e03a079611bae11281203373809d.jpg
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      Well, the other tech is FAR off, anyway and gloves can be used as add on to the Vives as the Vive actually has buttons…in convenient places and a trigger.
  - Mike
    
    “With plain glove controllers, there is no tactile feedback”
    That depends on the glove’s design. It’s entirely possible for a glove to have tactile feedback. In fact, there’s been a prototype glove in the news just like that.
    - OOLuigiOo
      
      So where are the buttons?
      
      Is this a very early prototype?
      - Mike
        
        It was an early prototype, and it had no buttons. But if the concept gets fully developed, software can have virtual buttons that the glove resists motion against, making it feel like real buttons.
Sponge Bob

This is DOA
- David Herrington
  
  I love Dead or Alive! Which is your favorite?
  - Sponge Bob
    
    DOA means dead on arrival
    - David Herrington
      
      Oh I just thought that since you like using one sentence with no explanation that we could take that to mean whatever we want.
      Maybe you should try to explain yourself next time.
      - Mei Ling
        
        Apparently this man is obsessed with the word DOA which probably stems from an obsession with Dead or Alive.
      - Sponge Bob
        
        wtf is Dead or Alive ?
        
        some stupid game ?
        
        I never play games
        
        VR is not just for gamers
      - J.C.
        
        He has no explanation. He’s said this in every thread related to the knuckles controllers. He’s got no reason for what he’s saying, he’s the new MyCatIsAFlea.
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        Just another dumbass he is :D
    - OPMan
      
      Your comment was also DOA. You might want to return it.
    - Laurence Nairne
      
      It also means Digital Object Architecture.
HybridEnergy

I don’t understand the purpose of these or at least a purpose they are to fill that the current HTC VIVE controllers don’t. I like the current VIVE controllers, they seem to take shape of everything they need VR and I think are the best controllers in VR out to date.
- Mei Ling
  
  Have you been paying any attention to this article or any other article related to this product at all?
  - HybridEnergy
    
    Only this article, it’s why I’m asking.
    - David Herrington
      
      With Touch and Knuckles controllers, you can actually “let go” and pick up objects.
      
      With Knuckles controllers specifically, having the strap on the Knuckles allows you to let go entirely of the controller which the Touch controllers can not do.
      
      The Knuckle controller uses analog finger-sensing which allows each finger to be tracked along its range of motion. This effectively tracks each finger like a glove controller would, thus negating the need for a glove controller.
      - D3Pixel
        
        Just don’t scratch your nose, you will knock a tooth out before you get there.
      - dogtato
        
        scratch with your thumb
        
        I just hope these have a reliable trackpad that registers clicks on the edges and doesn’t have a little foam circle that comes lose and breaks clicking altogether.
      - David Herrington
        
        I have a hard time reaching my nose when its crammed in a HMD in the first place. ;)
      - D3Pixel
        
        I actually think it is an interesting device. It is like they shrunk down the vive controller to 75% and added a k.duster strap. I am looking forwards to reviews.
      - Get Schwifty!
        
        Let me correct this a bit – reading this I reached over and slipped on a Touch controller on my right hand – you can definitely “let go” and the controller won’t drop off, but your middle finger goes up against the ring of the Touch, in effect holding it in place. To be sure the controller doesn’t drop, be sure to have the nylon cord around your wrist _just in case_.
      - David Herrington
        
        Your fingers may be longer than others causing this phenomenon. Smaller hands will have varied results. Knuckles controllers on the other hand are meant to be “let go” and allow fluid throwing mechanics that are not possible with Touch.
        
        This is the entire reason for the Knuckles cinch band.
      - Get Schwifty!
        
        I have small hands actually, relatively speaking, so no that is not true.
      - David Herrington
        
        Even so, open your hand while throwing something in virtual space with a Touch controller and you will find that they were not created for this type of movement as the controller leaves your hand.
      - OOLuigiOo
        
        Well, its still gonna swing back n forth when it drops so less points for that.
      - Get Schwifty!
        
        True but its not as simple as “New Vive controller stays on, Touch falls off”, they did design Touch to account for relaxed gesturing for instance.
      - HybridEnergy
        
        Hey David and the rest, thanks for the clarification, so it’s essentially to create the feeling of an open hand? I kind of like that actually.
Mane Vr

Hey vive owner will there be a traded-in program or r u guys just going to buy these on top of the ones u have now.
- Gus Bisbal
  
  Is this a serious question? A company makes something, you buy it. They then make something better and they are now supposed to give it to you for almost no money and take back the original. Your making out like when someone makes something new its the companies responsibility to make sure you get it for as cheap as possible. Do you know why they are making new things. Its not to help you out dude.
  - Laurence Nairne
    
    Technically it *is* a hardware manufacturer’s (via their retailer network) responsibility to make sure the consumer receives it as cheaply as possible whilst still making a profit. Else they lose their competitive edge.
    
    That being said, I agree that the whole notion of a trade-in program being led by the manufacturer is ridiculous. Nothing stopping retailer outlets doing so though, as they can resell the old hardware.
    - Gus Bisbal
      
      Technically it is a hardware manufacturer’s responsibility to make as much money as possible. Ask the share holders. They will back me on this. Being competitive is not done by selling for as low as possible. That is what you want. Look at Apple. They sell everything for more than their competitors. Laurence, own a company making hardware and when I turn up and say come on, sell all your stuff for way less because your clients would love you too. You should see what your children and wife will say about that.
      - Laurence Nairne
        
        My job is working with hardware manufacturers and their retailer networks who sell their products. They need to to make as much revenue as possible, but still get it to the end consumer as cheaply as possible, otherwise units will not be shifted.
        
        Apple are a very unique brand that many a hardware manufacturer wish they could be, because they command an unfathomably large and loyal consumer base. They also pitch themselves as a luxury brand, which many HMs cannot. Hence, the higher price points. Mobile tech also benefits from the success of phone contracts to spread that cost out for their most successful product (the iPhone).
        
        You look at games consoles and you’ll see that they generally don’t make any profit at all. It’s the software that keeps them afloat.
  - Mane Vr
    
    a traded in doesn’t give u full price so no I don’t think they would give their costumers it for almost nothing I don’t even own a vive I just wondering as a way to speed up adoption they would offer a traded in.. you know like how console makes do from time to time..
- Get Schwifty!
  
  Yeaaahh… you’re dealing with what amounts to a cell-phone company used to pimping slight refinements for a premium … they make their fortune selling up every little change, I seriously doubt they are going to do anything of the sort.
  - Mane Vr
    
    Yea i doubt it too but it would be nice if they did.
John Horn

I look forward to this! Much needed!
Michael Banks

Hope knuckles will dev. friendly.. in terms of putting on to test a game.. transition from keyboard to game controller
Michael Banks

Current controller’s thumb disk has limited range ( segmented to 4-6 parts) hope the new one has full 360 degrees rotation for steering etc…
JeanClaude

I just wish they went with analog thumb sticks, and more analog normal buttons and triggers.

Valve’s Knuckles Controllers Get Ergonomic Improvements, Begin Arriving at Devs’ Doorsteps

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